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Believe it or not ...

 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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07 October 2019 09:33
 

... this mindset is at the forefront of every discussion into which I engage: I Might Be Wrong

 
 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
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07 October 2019 10:32
 

I can think of only one forum person who might take issue with the message of this song, and it’s not you or me, bb. Who am I referring to?

 
EN
 
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EN
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07 October 2019 10:34
 
nonverbal - 07 October 2019 10:32 AM

I can think of only one forum person who might take issue with the message of this song, and it’s not you or me, bb. Who am I referring to?

Donald Trump, who has “unmatched wisdom”.

 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
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07 October 2019 10:52
 

Damn. I knew I should have upper-cased “forum.”

Hint: My house needs to be painted and I’m afraid of heights. I’m hoping this person will paint my house, but he probably lives too far away.

 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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07 October 2019 11:20
 
nonverbal - 07 October 2019 10:32 AM

I can think of only one forum person who might take issue with the message of this song, and it’s not you or me, bb. Who am I referring to?

That will probably get us a rant pot in his jar ...

 
 
nonverbal
 
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07 October 2019 11:45
 
bbearren - 07 October 2019 11:20 AM
nonverbal - 07 October 2019 10:32 AM

I can think of only one forum person who might take issue with the message of this song, and it’s not you or me, bb. Who am I referring to?

That will probably get us a rant pot in his jar ...

Yeah, but plane tickets are cheap these days, and he’ll soon need to furnish an enormous garage/mancave.

 
EN
 
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EN
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07 October 2019 12:15
 

Traces Elk has decided to entertain himself by poking the hornet’s nest in the jar.  Verbal hornets were flying. But I might be wrong.

 
Traces Elk
 
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Traces Elk
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08 October 2019 15:20
 
EN - 07 October 2019 12:15 PM

Traces Elk has decided to entertain himself by poking the hornet’s nest in the jar.  Verbal hornets were flying. But I might be wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbMnUcM0qhk

Can it be the sorry sun is rising
Guess it’s time for us to book it
Talk about the famous road not taken
In the end we never took it
And if somewhere on the way
We got a few good licks in
No one’s ever gonna know
Cause we’re goin’ out of business
Everything must go

In some cases, such as thermodynamics, the only way to break even is not to play at all. It must be great at times like this to have religious faith to fall back on.

 
 
EN
 
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08 October 2019 16:06
 

Some pretty notable scientists think we live in a computer simulation, designed by a super intelligent programmer.  Functionally, there is no difference between such an intelligent programmer and God.  Of course, the programmer could be some psychopathic fat kid who is sitting on a sofa creating beings that he can burn like ants.  Or, the programmer could be benevolent, which is where religious faith comes in.  Whatever happens, we believe it will be good.  It’s really not as far-fetched as you make it out to be.

 
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09 October 2019 01:34
 
EN - 08 October 2019 04:06 PM

Some pretty notable scientists think we live in a computer simulation, designed by a super intelligent programmer.  Functionally, there is no difference between such an intelligent programmer and God.  Of course, the programmer could be some psychopathic fat kid who is sitting on a sofa creating beings that he can burn like ants.  Or, the programmer could be benevolent, which is where religious faith comes in.  Whatever happens, we believe it will be good.  It’s really not as far-fetched as you make it out to be.

I don’t have much use for the dichotomy of believer and non-believer any more. There are people who have never believed, and then there are those who have. A lot of people were indoctrinated in some brand of god-bothering as kids and later rejected that belief system. They often struggle psychologically with the residues. This should not be news to anyone who reads much of this sort of forum. There might be another category, too: Those who never believed but went through the indoctrination anyway, until they were free of their families’ influences or pressures, but even never-believers can have had a shit family life. The only folks I still have no patience for are those who make up a big song and dance to go with their faith. It sounds to me like a rehearsal of whatever they need in order to hang onto that faith, which isn’t based on anything, anyway, and that they’re having difficulty with. Believing that whatever happens will be good is increasingly tempting given the way things seem to be going on the plane down here, where there are data instead of just interpretations.

 
 
bbearren
 
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09 October 2019 07:09
 
Traces Elk - 09 October 2019 01:34 AM

There are people who have never believed, and then there are those who have.

There is yet another category.

 
 
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09 October 2019 09:44
 
bbearren - 09 October 2019 07:09 AM
Traces Elk - 09 October 2019 01:34 AM

There are people who have never believed, and then there are those who have.

There is yet another category.

I’m not yet convinced that’s another category, so I’m not yet convinced you needed to point me to that. You identify yourself in the linked post as a believer, and you told us you believe what you believe. So far, I’m OK with what you wrote, in that it’s clear that this is just a very personal thing with you. That’s a rarity among believers, but I didn’t mean to identify (deity) belief as necessarily social. Here’s one reason:

bbearren - 29 October 2014 07:26 PM

It is my understanding that God is “nature”, to nature’s fullest extent.

We don’t need both words, then. At least, I don’t, not as part of some rigorous dissertation. The impressive mystics feel what they feel and talk very little about it. The less they talk about it, paradoxically, the more impressive they are, until I don’t know they’re there at all.

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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09 October 2019 10:33
 
Traces Elk - 09 October 2019 09:44 AM

I’m not yet convinced that’s another category, so I’m not yet convinced you needed to point me to that.

Of how many atheists who have become believers are you aware?  Or using your terminology, how many people who have never believed who have at some point become believers?

As put forth in the OP, that I might be wrong is at the forefront of every discussion into which I engage.  That, and Paul Thorn is one of my favorite singer/song-writers.

We don’t need both words, then.

There is no “we”.  It’s personal.

 
 
Traces Elk
 
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09 October 2019 11:11
 
bbearren - 09 October 2019 10:33 AM
Traces Elk - 09 October 2019 09:44 AM

I’m not yet convinced that’s another category, so I’m not yet convinced you needed to point me to that.

Of how many atheists who have become believers are you aware?

It’s not a select club, or anything, in which one achieves membership by having a revelation of god. What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. I’m skeptical down to the roots, so if I experience a revelation of god, and that stops, I may still be able to ask myself if I was just having some kind of fit. If I wanted to believe in god, and had a revelation, well, that would settle that.

There is no shortage of cool stories out there told by folks who claim now to be believers having once not believed. It’s not a magnificent transformation, particularly when the god that one claims to believe in is just “everything”. The reason why I said we don’t need both words is that you want to tell us about it. You can also assert (rather emptily, at this point) that it’s “personal”. Is it important to you that I also believe, but only that I believe the stories you tell? I was willing to take your profession at face value, up until about the time you brought in the question that I quoted to start this post.

If I don’t choose to believe the stories, there’s no chance I will be wrong in my belief because I make no assessment of the content. To me they are just stories you tell. Many folks also insist that their atheism is simply this lack of belief in deities. Who can argue with that? It’s irrelevant to me how many or few become believers after being atheists, especially if all that is required in an atheist is to lack any belief in deities.

I am used to discussing matters like this with people who don’t stop asking questions as soon as someone says “I believe X”. If you don’t want someone to question your beliefs, there’s an easy way to avoid the matter.

[ Edited: 09 October 2019 11:16 by Traces Elk]
 
 
Traces Elk
 
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Traces Elk
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09 October 2019 11:27
 

“God” is a very ancient entity, folks, and the early stories that have been preserved are all about the agency and intent of this entity, so that whatever is happening in existence, it is because this entity intends that it happen. Of course, anyone can take off with this rendition, and the first choice might be to negate all the properties invented by ancient pre-scientific people for this entity. That doesn’t make it a different entity, because the negation is based on an existing template. When I see a home-brewed deity that doesn’t fall afoul of this problem, I will be mightily impressed by the creativity of whoever has invented it. There’s only a very small difference between a cosmos driven by intent, and one that isn’t driven by anything, and it is the gratification one feels by existing in a cosmos driven by intent.

[ Edited: 09 October 2019 11:32 by Traces Elk]
 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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09 October 2019 11:49
 
Traces Elk - 09 October 2019 11:11 AM

Is it important to you that I also believe, but only that I believe the stories you tell?

Not at all.  It’s not important that you read my posts, nor is it important that you reply.

 
 
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