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Believe it or not ...

 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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09 October 2019 11:58
 
Traces Elk - 09 October 2019 11:27 AM

“God” is a very ancient entity, folks, and the early stories that have been preserved are all about the agency and intent of this entity, so that whatever is happening in existence, it is because this entity intends that it happen. Of course, anyone can take off with this rendition, and the first choice might be to negate all the properties invented by ancient pre-scientific people for this entity. That doesn’t make it a different entity, because the negation is based on an existing template. When I see a home-brewed deity that doesn’t fall afoul of this problem, I will be mightily impressed by the creativity of whoever has invented it. There’s only a very small difference between a cosmos driven by intent, and one that isn’t driven by anything, and it is the gratification one feels by existing in a cosmos driven by intent.

None of that is relevant to my faith, in any way.

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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09 October 2019 12:21
 
Traces Elk - 09 October 2019 01:34 AM

Believing that whatever happens will be good is increasingly tempting given the way things seem to be going on the plane down here, where there are data instead of just interpretations.

Yes, the data is not good down here. We seem to be intent on destroying our political system, our world and ourselves.  Faith, hope, and love may, indeed, be all that the individual has left at some point.

 
Traces Elk
 
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Traces Elk
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09 October 2019 13:07
 
bbearren - 09 October 2019 11:49 AM
Traces Elk - 09 October 2019 11:11 AM

Is it important to you that I also believe, but only that I believe the stories you tell?

Not at all.  It’s not important that you read my posts, nor is it important that you reply.

yawn

You directly replied to a post of mine with a link to your dimwitted profession of faith. Consider how many college freshmen over the years have discovered their first deepities over a keg of beer at the dorm or frat. God is everything! Oh, wow, man.

 
 
Traces Elk
 
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Traces Elk
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09 October 2019 13:32
 
EN - 09 October 2019 12:21 PM
Traces Elk - 09 October 2019 01:34 AM

Believing that whatever happens will be good is increasingly tempting given the way things seem to be going on the plane down here, where there are data instead of just interpretations.

Yes, the data is not good down here. We seem to be intent on destroying our political system, our world and ourselves.  Faith, hope, and love may, indeed, be all that the individual has left at some point.

Check out this film review of “No Country For Old Men” from 2008:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2008/jan/18/drama.thriller

Sheriff Ed Tom is nonetheless a welcome voice of sanity and humour in a world of evil. When he stumbles across a ring of decaying corpses and shot-up trucks and SUVs in the remote desert - the grisly remains of a drug deal gone sour - his callow young deputy remarks, plaintively: “It’s a mess, ain’t it, Sheriff?” And Ed Tom replies, tersely: “If it ain’t, it’ll do until the mess gets here.”

If you like Alt Country at all, give a listen on youtube to Steve Earle’s Amerika V6.0 (The Best We Can Do). That always gets the ol’ heart pumping a bit stronger. What’s really chilling is that the album was released back in 2002. Some of us at the time didn’t much like George W, but we didn’t have anything that much worse to compare him to.

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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09 October 2019 14:23
 
Traces Elk - 09 October 2019 01:32 PM
EN - 09 October 2019 12:21 PM
Traces Elk - 09 October 2019 01:34 AM

Believing that whatever happens will be good is increasingly tempting given the way things seem to be going on the plane down here, where there are data instead of just interpretations.

Yes, the data is not good down here. We seem to be intent on destroying our political system, our world and ourselves.  Faith, hope, and love may, indeed, be all that the individual has left at some point.

Check out this film review of “No Country For Old Men” from 2008:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2008/jan/18/drama.thriller

Sheriff Ed Tom is nonetheless a welcome voice of sanity and humour in a world of evil. When he stumbles across a ring of decaying corpses and shot-up trucks and SUVs in the remote desert - the grisly remains of a drug deal gone sour - his callow young deputy remarks, plaintively: “It’s a mess, ain’t it, Sheriff?” And Ed Tom replies, tersely: “If it ain’t, it’ll do until the mess gets here.”

If you like Alt Country at all, give a listen on youtube to Steve Earle’s Amerika V6.0 (The Best We Can Do). That always gets the ol’ heart pumping a bit stronger. What’s really chilling is that the album was released back in 2002. Some of us at the time didn’t much like George W, but we didn’t have anything that much worse to compare him to.

No Country is a good Texas movie - makes me feel at home, although Bardem is the baddest psychopath on film. The town where I work - Temple - is even mentioned in it.  I’ll check out the Earle song - I love Copperhead Road.

 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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09 October 2019 14:29
 
Traces Elk - 09 October 2019 01:07 PM

You directly replied to a post of mine with a link to your dimwitted profession of faith. Consider how many college freshmen over the years have discovered their first deepities over a keg of beer at the dorm or frat. God is everything! Oh, wow, man.

Posted: 09 October 2019

It’s not important that you read my posts, nor is it important that you reply.

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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09 October 2019 15:53
 

The ride gets shorter each time you take it.

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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09 October 2019 18:02
 
Nhoj Morley - 09 October 2019 03:53 PM

The ride gets shorter each time you take it.

The ride has not yet ended.  For what it’s worth, the scenery is still interesting, the beer is still free.

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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09 October 2019 19:00
 

Hey, Traces Salt, listened to Earle’s “The Best We Can Do”.  Good beat, heavy rift, combined with Earle’s country twang - nice song. The message - we’ve strayed a little from the Declaration of Independence.  No shit, but we were straying when it was written. At least we aren’t selling people “in the market down in New Orleans” anymore, but it’s clear that money and power rule over self-evident truths.

The truth is that it has always been bad, but superimposed on the bad is something MLK called the arc of the moral universe.  It bends toward justice, according to him.  Just barely. So today, we aren’t living in shit like we did in 1019 and in most of the world there are no slaves.  We will see if MLK is right. Climate change and the rise of modern dictators and oligarchs challenge his axiom.  So far, I still have faith that the moral universe has The Good as a goal. Unless, of course, that goal is the ultimate elimination of our species. We’ll see.  In the meantime, enjoy life.

 
Traces Elk
 
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Traces Elk
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10 October 2019 03:10
 
EN - 09 October 2019 07:00 PM

Hey, Traces Salt, listened to Earle’s “The Best We Can Do”.  Good beat, heavy rift, combined with Earle’s country twang - nice song. The message - we’ve strayed a little from the Declaration of Independence.  No shit, but we were straying when it was written. At least we aren’t selling people “in the market down in New Orleans” anymore, but it’s clear that money and power rule over self-evident truths.

The truth is that it has always been bad, but superimposed on the bad is something MLK called the arc of the moral universe.  It bends toward justice, according to him.  Just barely. So today, we aren’t living in shit like we did in 1019 and in most of the world there are no slaves.  We will see if MLK is right. Climate change and the rise of modern dictators and oligarchs challenge his axiom.  So far, I still have faith that the moral universe has The Good as a goal. Unless, of course, that goal is the ultimate elimination of our species. We’ll see.  In the meantime, enjoy life.

Technology keeps getting more powerful, but the human impulse toward moral fortitude does not, and even seems to weaken relatively as a political force. Draw your own conclusions. One is tempted to believe that the moral arc of the universe is stronger than dirt, and going there requires faith. I mean, Greta Thunberg does not strike me so much as a moral paragon as she does a PR success.

 
 
burt
 
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burt
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10 October 2019 08:39
 
Traces Elk - 10 October 2019 03:10 AM
EN - 09 October 2019 07:00 PM

Hey, Traces Salt, listened to Earle’s “The Best We Can Do”.  Good beat, heavy rift, combined with Earle’s country twang - nice song. The message - we’ve strayed a little from the Declaration of Independence.  No shit, but we were straying when it was written. At least we aren’t selling people “in the market down in New Orleans” anymore, but it’s clear that money and power rule over self-evident truths.

The truth is that it has always been bad, but superimposed on the bad is something MLK called the arc of the moral universe.  It bends toward justice, according to him.  Just barely. So today, we aren’t living in shit like we did in 1019 and in most of the world there are no slaves.  We will see if MLK is right. Climate change and the rise of modern dictators and oligarchs challenge his axiom.  So far, I still have faith that the moral universe has The Good as a goal. Unless, of course, that goal is the ultimate elimination of our species. We’ll see.  In the meantime, enjoy life.

Technology keeps getting more powerful, but the human impulse toward moral fortitude does not, and even seems to weaken relatively as a political force. Draw your own conclusions. One is tempted to believe that the moral arc of the universe is stronger than dirt, and going there requires faith. I mean, Greta Thunberg does not strike me so much as a moral paragon as she does a PR success.

As a PR success, that’s what works best today (Trump, anybody?). In a semi-Jungian forum my brother asked what was going on in the collective unconscious when the Great Archetypes have chosen to manifest across Trump and Greta. To put this into a less woo woo form, there is a theory of what are called cultural attractors that attempts to explain how cultural information can be transmitted across generations without degrading. The idea is that there are certain cultural forms that are centres of convergence, for a variety of reasons (some physical, for example if one is making an. arrowhead it will only work if it’s made in certain ways). Important in this are psychological factors that lead to a tendency for cultural transmission to go in certain ways and not others. These can be in conflict (e.g., the attraction to a powerful alpha male vs resistance to being dominated) but one can hope that overall the affiliative instincts will tend to direct cultural evolution in a positive direction (whatever positive might mean).

 
Traces Elk
 
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Traces Elk
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10 October 2019 10:20
 
burt - 10 October 2019 08:39 AM
Traces Elk - 10 October 2019 03:10 AM
EN - 09 October 2019 07:00 PM

Hey, Traces Salt, listened to Earle’s “The Best We Can Do”.  Good beat, heavy rift, combined with Earle’s country twang - nice song. The message - we’ve strayed a little from the Declaration of Independence.  No shit, but we were straying when it was written. At least we aren’t selling people “in the market down in New Orleans” anymore, but it’s clear that money and power rule over self-evident truths.

The truth is that it has always been bad, but superimposed on the bad is something MLK called the arc of the moral universe.  It bends toward justice, according to him.  Just barely. So today, we aren’t living in shit like we did in 1019 and in most of the world there are no slaves.  We will see if MLK is right. Climate change and the rise of modern dictators and oligarchs challenge his axiom.  So far, I still have faith that the moral universe has The Good as a goal. Unless, of course, that goal is the ultimate elimination of our species. We’ll see.  In the meantime, enjoy life.

Technology keeps getting more powerful, but the human impulse toward moral fortitude does not, and even seems to weaken relatively as a political force. Draw your own conclusions. One is tempted to believe that the moral arc of the universe is stronger than dirt, and going there requires faith. I mean, Greta Thunberg does not strike me so much as a moral paragon as she does a PR success.

As a PR success, that’s what works best today (Trump, anybody?). In a semi-Jungian forum my brother asked what was going on in the collective unconscious when the Great Archetypes have chosen to manifest across Trump and Greta. To put this into a less woo woo form, there is a theory of what are called cultural attractors that attempts to explain how cultural information can be transmitted across generations without degrading. The idea is that there are certain cultural forms that are centres of convergence, for a variety of reasons (some physical, for example if one is making an. arrowhead it will only work if it’s made in certain ways). Important in this are psychological factors that lead to a tendency for cultural transmission to go in certain ways and not others. These can be in conflict (e.g., the attraction to a powerful alpha male vs resistance to being dominated) but one can hope that overall the affiliative instincts will tend to direct cultural evolution in a positive direction (whatever positive might mean).

Is the theory of cultural attractors considered less woo-woo than Jungian archetypes because it says cultural information instead of collective unconscious? Yeah, I guess we can set cultural information above the surf zone beyond which the collective unconscious lies entirely submerged. I see cultural information, then, as a kind of coastal dune that the winds of change are blowing around. Let’s hope the offshore breezes don’t kick up too much. What foehn that would be.

 
 
burt
 
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burt
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10 October 2019 11:12
 
Traces Elk - 10 October 2019 10:20 AM
burt - 10 October 2019 08:39 AM
Traces Elk - 10 October 2019 03:10 AM
EN - 09 October 2019 07:00 PM

Hey, Traces Salt, listened to Earle’s “The Best We Can Do”.  Good beat, heavy rift, combined with Earle’s country twang - nice song. The message - we’ve strayed a little from the Declaration of Independence.  No shit, but we were straying when it was written. At least we aren’t selling people “in the market down in New Orleans” anymore, but it’s clear that money and power rule over self-evident truths.

The truth is that it has always been bad, but superimposed on the bad is something MLK called the arc of the moral universe.  It bends toward justice, according to him.  Just barely. So today, we aren’t living in shit like we did in 1019 and in most of the world there are no slaves.  We will see if MLK is right. Climate change and the rise of modern dictators and oligarchs challenge his axiom.  So far, I still have faith that the moral universe has The Good as a goal. Unless, of course, that goal is the ultimate elimination of our species. We’ll see.  In the meantime, enjoy life.

Technology keeps getting more powerful, but the human impulse toward moral fortitude does not, and even seems to weaken relatively as a political force. Draw your own conclusions. One is tempted to believe that the moral arc of the universe is stronger than dirt, and going there requires faith. I mean, Greta Thunberg does not strike me so much as a moral paragon as she does a PR success.

As a PR success, that’s what works best today (Trump, anybody?). In a semi-Jungian forum my brother asked what was going on in the collective unconscious when the Great Archetypes have chosen to manifest across Trump and Greta. To put this into a less woo woo form, there is a theory of what are called cultural attractors that attempts to explain how cultural information can be transmitted across generations without degrading. The idea is that there are certain cultural forms that are centres of convergence, for a variety of reasons (some physical, for example if one is making an. arrowhead it will only work if it’s made in certain ways). Important in this are psychological factors that lead to a tendency for cultural transmission to go in certain ways and not others. These can be in conflict (e.g., the attraction to a powerful alpha male vs resistance to being dominated) but one can hope that overall the affiliative instincts will tend to direct cultural evolution in a positive direction (whatever positive might mean).

Is the theory of cultural attractors considered less woo-woo than Jungian archetypes because it says cultural information instead of collective unconscious? Yeah, I guess we can set cultural information above the surf zone beyond which the collective unconscious lies entirely submerged. I see cultural information, then, as a kind of coastal dune that the winds of change are blowing around. Let’s hope the offshore breezes don’t kick up too much. What foehn that would be.

So far, the theory has used only trivial examples, but it does provide a connection between cultural evolution and psychology.

 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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10 October 2019 18:43
 

Collective unconscious, cultural attactors, collective conscience, cultural cognitions.

They’re all trying to capture a social mind, of sorts.

 
 
Traces Elk
 
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10 October 2019 21:17
 
Jb8989 - 10 October 2019 06:43 PM

Collective unconscious, cultural attactors, collective conscience, cultural cognitions.

They’re all trying to capture a social mind, of sorts.

Sounds like a kind of ad hoc substitute for all those folks who have given up believing in gods and still seek a powerful, disembodied force capable of battling evil in the world. I’m only half-serious, here: sometimes people develop coinages like this because they see themselves as BIg Thinkers. It all converges where folks like to make pronouncements they cannot definitively be shown wrong about, and so we are back to finding replacements for gods. Believe it or not!!

 
 
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