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“Sins of the Father”

 
Garret
 
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Garret
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15 December 2019 22:44
 

If you want to discuss reparations, I am amenable to expanding the topic, but you will have to come at me with more than your hot take.  Convince me you’ve learned something about the topic.  Don’t say something a high schooler who forgot to do last nights reading could come up with on the fly.

If you’ve never read anything about reparations, I’d recommend starting with The Case for Reparations, by Ta-Nehisi Coates.  Coates is a good writer, and the article isn’t that old, so you aren’t required to remember the context of when it was written.  It is not necessarily short.

I have a bunch of articles I can access, but they’re behind law library paywalls, so I’m looking for good articles that are more publicly available.  The problem is I don’t normally look for them, since I need the more rigorous/sourced/peer reviewed ones usually.

[ Edited: 15 December 2019 23:04 by Garret]
 
EN
 
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EN
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16 December 2019 12:58
GAD
 
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GAD
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16 December 2019 14:12
 

Like I’ve said, Identity Politics and Social Justice is the new religion, facts don’t matter just faith, if you believe hard enough you will be rewarded with riches in a world where non-whites, women and LGBTQXYX will inherit the earth and it will be a utopia.

 
 
Garret
 
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Garret
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16 December 2019 15:10
 
EN - 16 December 2019 12:58 PM

Here is a response to Mr. Coates.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/05/case-against-reparations-kevin-d-williamson/

You’ve shown me you were able to google “case against reparations”.  You have not demonstrated you’ve even opened either article.

When I said I’ve seen these same arguments from high schoolers who forgot to do the reading, I am being literal.

If you want more articles that I’ve read, PM me, and we can figure something out, but I’m not going to put the forum in jeopardy by posting links to copyrighted material.  As far as debate goes though, what you’ve shown me on the issue of reparations is waste of my time.  If I’m going to think about the issue, I’m going to go back to my professional work.

As for Mr. Williamson’s editorial, at best it is a response to Coates own editorial.  Seeing as there is nearly a century of history of writing on the subject, including many books both in regards to the history and legality of the issue, Mr. Williamson doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface of dealing with the complexity of what is being discussed.  His article rests on a solitary strawman that it looks like he doesn’t even realize he is doing.  He might be decently versed in contemporary statistics on the economic situation of black Americans, but he has little to no understanding of the legal complexity or precedent.  In fact, he completely ignores the largest precedence cited by Coates, which indicates to me that he does not appear to have fully understood what Coates is calling for.

I linked Coates article as a way for you to start learning about the topic.  Not as the be-all-end-all that you need to refute.

Some other authors to consider:
Randall Robinson
Robert Allen
Adrienne Davis
Kimberle Crenshaw
RDG Kelley
William Darity Jr.
Clarence Munford
Robert Fullinwider

(Fullwinder and Munford also cite a plethora of law professors if that avenue is interesting)

This is just scratching the surface on the amount of work that has been done to discuss the topic in academic circles.  If a person were to have an open mind on the topic, I would think that they would want to at least consider scratching the surface, or speak to someone who has, before they form an opinion.

[ Edited: 16 December 2019 15:26 by Garret]
 
Garret
 
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Garret
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16 December 2019 15:12
 
GAD - 16 December 2019 02:12 PM

Like I’ve said, Identity Politics and Social Justice is the new religion, facts don’t matter just faith, if you believe hard enough you will be rewarded with riches in a world where non-whites, women and LGBTQXYX will inherit the earth and it will be a utopia.

Please note, I am providing sources for my claims.  If you want to debate this topic, if you provide no sources, I will not respond.  If I were a mod, I would delete all posts without citations.  Just flat out, I’d make it a rule for this thread, but alas, I am not.  If you don’t have sources to back you up, all you have is your opinion, and I don’t care about your opinion.

 

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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16 December 2019 15:24
 
Garret - 16 December 2019 03:12 PM
GAD - 16 December 2019 02:12 PM

Like I’ve said, Identity Politics and Social Justice is the new religion, facts don’t matter just faith, if you believe hard enough you will be rewarded with riches in a world where non-whites, women and LGBTQXYX will inherit the earth and it will be a utopia.

Please note, I am providing sources for my claims.  If you want to debate this topic, if you provide no sources, I will not respond.  If I were a mod, I would delete all posts without citations.  Just flat out, I’d make it a rule for this thread, but alas, I am not.  If you don’t have sources to back you up, all you have is your opinion, and I don’t care about your opinion.

No, all you are doing is giving your opinion of some one else’s opinion, here is opinion X and my opinion based on it. In this case you are opinion X (this thread) and I am giving my opinion on it.

PS appealing the Admins like gods to favor your threads as if you are more important then everyone else is pretty low bullshit. If you can’t stand on your own you shouldn’t be here, same as anyone else.

[ Edited: 16 December 2019 17:38 by GAD]
 
 
EN
 
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EN
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16 December 2019 17:03
 
Garret - 16 December 2019 03:10 PM
EN - 16 December 2019 12:58 PM

Here is a response to Mr. Coates.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/05/case-against-reparations-kevin-d-williamson/

You’ve shown me you were able to google “case against reparations”.  You have not demonstrated you’ve even opened either article.

When I said I’ve seen these same arguments from high schoolers who forgot to do the reading, I am being literal.

If you want more articles that I’ve read, PM me, and we can figure something out, but I’m not going to put the forum in jeopardy by posting links to copyrighted material.  As far as debate goes though, what you’ve shown me on the issue of reparations is waste of my time.  If I’m going to think about the issue, I’m going to go back to my professional work.

As for Mr. Williamson’s editorial, at best it is a response to Coates own editorial.  Seeing as there is nearly a century of history of writing on the subject, including many books both in regards to the history and legality of the issue, Mr. Williamson doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface of dealing with the complexity of what is being discussed.  His article rests on a solitary strawman that it looks like he doesn’t even realize he is doing.  He might be decently versed in contemporary statistics on the economic situation of black Americans, but he has little to no understanding of the legal complexity or precedent.  In fact, he completely ignores the largest precedence cited by Coates, which indicates to me that he does not appear to have fully understood what Coates is calling for.

I linked Coates article as a way for you to start learning about the topic.  Not as the be-all-end-all that you need to refute.

Some other authors to consider:
Randall Robinson
Robert Allen
Adrienne Davis
Kimberle Crenshaw
RDG Kelley
William Darity Jr.
Clarence Munford
Robert Fullinwider

(Fullwinder and Munford also cite a plethora of law professors if that avenue is interesting)

This is just scratching the surface on the amount of work that has been done to discuss the topic in academic circles.  If a person were to have an open mind on the topic, I would think that they would want to at least consider scratching the surface, or speak to someone who has, before they form an opinion.

You showed me you could google when you linked us to Mr Coates’ article.  I’m not here to be graded by you, Teach, or to show you anything.  I’m sure both of us can google a bunch of articles.  I read Coates and the response.  I agree with the response.  If you want to convince me I’m wrong, you’ll have to do more than act like a snob.  Ultimately, after we’ve read a bunch of articles, we have to make up our own minds and form an opinion. We are not doing Ph.D dissertations here.  This a neighborhood bar.  Don’t expect much more.

 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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16 December 2019 18:06
 

Parameters were clearly laid out at the start of the thread.  Patrons are advised to participate at their own risk.

The notion this forum serves as a neighbourhood watering hole is a nice idea but ultimately to the perception of the poster.  It may not seem to everyone like the friendliest of neighbourhoods.

For now it will have to suffice as a thread in the Hall of Philosophy.

Feel free to seek out another table.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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16 December 2019 18:21
 
LadyJane - 16 December 2019 06:06 PM

Parameters were clearly laid out at the start of the thread.  Patrons are advised to participate at their own risk.

The notion this forum serves as a neighbourhood watering hole is a nice idea but ultimately to the perception of the poster.  It may not seem to everyone like the friendliest of neighbourhoods.

For now it will have to suffice as a thread in the Hall of Philosophy.

Feel free to seek out another table.

If not the perception of the posters, then whose? Your? Certainly not Sam Harris perceptions since he didn’t make any rules or seem to care about any. This has the feel of there is an unknowable god who you claim to speak the will of.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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16 December 2019 18:31
 
GAD - 16 December 2019 06:21 PM
LadyJane - 16 December 2019 06:06 PM

Parameters were clearly laid out at the start of the thread.  Patrons are advised to participate at their own risk.

The notion this forum serves as a neighbourhood watering hole is a nice idea but ultimately to the perception of the poster.  It may not seem to everyone like the friendliest of neighbourhoods.

For now it will have to suffice as a thread in the Hall of Philosophy.

Feel free to seek out another table.

If not the perception of the posters, then whose? Your? Certainly not Sam Harris perceptions since he didn’t make any rules or seem to care about any. This has the feel of there is an unknowable god who you claim to speak the will of.

Thinking of the place as a watering hole is not necessarily a perception we all share, is what I’m saying.

There are bouncers, however.

 
 
Garret
 
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Garret
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16 December 2019 18:40
 
EN - 16 December 2019 05:03 PM
Garret - 16 December 2019 03:10 PM
EN - 16 December 2019 12:58 PM

Here is a response to Mr. Coates.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/05/case-against-reparations-kevin-d-williamson/

You’ve shown me you were able to google “case against reparations”.  You have not demonstrated you’ve even opened either article.

When I said I’ve seen these same arguments from high schoolers who forgot to do the reading, I am being literal.

If you want more articles that I’ve read, PM me, and we can figure something out, but I’m not going to put the forum in jeopardy by posting links to copyrighted material.  As far as debate goes though, what you’ve shown me on the issue of reparations is waste of my time.  If I’m going to think about the issue, I’m going to go back to my professional work.

As for Mr. Williamson’s editorial, at best it is a response to Coates own editorial.  Seeing as there is nearly a century of history of writing on the subject, including many books both in regards to the history and legality of the issue, Mr. Williamson doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface of dealing with the complexity of what is being discussed.  His article rests on a solitary strawman that it looks like he doesn’t even realize he is doing.  He might be decently versed in contemporary statistics on the economic situation of black Americans, but he has little to no understanding of the legal complexity or precedent.  In fact, he completely ignores the largest precedence cited by Coates, which indicates to me that he does not appear to have fully understood what Coates is calling for.

I linked Coates article as a way for you to start learning about the topic.  Not as the be-all-end-all that you need to refute.

Some other authors to consider:
Randall Robinson
Robert Allen
Adrienne Davis
Kimberle Crenshaw
RDG Kelley
William Darity Jr.
Clarence Munford
Robert Fullinwider

(Fullwinder and Munford also cite a plethora of law professors if that avenue is interesting)

This is just scratching the surface on the amount of work that has been done to discuss the topic in academic circles.  If a person were to have an open mind on the topic, I would think that they would want to at least consider scratching the surface, or speak to someone who has, before they form an opinion.

You showed me you could google when you linked us to Mr Coates’ article.  I’m not here to be graded by you, Teach, or to show you anything.  I’m sure both of us can google a bunch of articles.  I read Coates and the response.  I agree with the response.  If you want to convince me I’m wrong, you’ll have to do more than act like a snob.  Ultimately, after we’ve read a bunch of articles, we have to make up our own minds and form an opinion. We are not doing Ph.D dissertations here.  This a neighborhood bar.  Don’t expect much more.

Oops, my bad.  You’d rather we spout opinions at each other and get no where.  You don’t want new information, you just want to feel comfortable in your opinion.

If you want to have your “bar conversation”, why don’t you start a different thread? Seems like the more “friendly” thing to do than coming into this thread and being pissed about being called out on not adhering to the threads goals.  If I made a shit thread, you guys can just let it die by not replying.

[ Edited: 16 December 2019 18:58 by Garret]
 
burt
 
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burt
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16 December 2019 19:28
 
Garret - 16 December 2019 06:40 PM
EN - 16 December 2019 05:03 PM
Garret - 16 December 2019 03:10 PM
EN - 16 December 2019 12:58 PM

Here is a response to Mr. Coates.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/05/case-against-reparations-kevin-d-williamson/

You’ve shown me you were able to google “case against reparations”.  You have not demonstrated you’ve even opened either article.

When I said I’ve seen these same arguments from high schoolers who forgot to do the reading, I am being literal.

If you want more articles that I’ve read, PM me, and we can figure something out, but I’m not going to put the forum in jeopardy by posting links to copyrighted material.  As far as debate goes though, what you’ve shown me on the issue of reparations is waste of my time.  If I’m going to think about the issue, I’m going to go back to my professional work.

As for Mr. Williamson’s editorial, at best it is a response to Coates own editorial.  Seeing as there is nearly a century of history of writing on the subject, including many books both in regards to the history and legality of the issue, Mr. Williamson doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface of dealing with the complexity of what is being discussed.  His article rests on a solitary strawman that it looks like he doesn’t even realize he is doing.  He might be decently versed in contemporary statistics on the economic situation of black Americans, but he has little to no understanding of the legal complexity or precedent.  In fact, he completely ignores the largest precedence cited by Coates, which indicates to me that he does not appear to have fully understood what Coates is calling for.

I linked Coates article as a way for you to start learning about the topic.  Not as the be-all-end-all that you need to refute.

Some other authors to consider:
Randall Robinson
Robert Allen
Adrienne Davis
Kimberle Crenshaw
RDG Kelley
William Darity Jr.
Clarence Munford
Robert Fullinwider

(Fullwinder and Munford also cite a plethora of law professors if that avenue is interesting)

This is just scratching the surface on the amount of work that has been done to discuss the topic in academic circles.  If a person were to have an open mind on the topic, I would think that they would want to at least consider scratching the surface, or speak to someone who has, before they form an opinion.

You showed me you could google when you linked us to Mr Coates’ article.  I’m not here to be graded by you, Teach, or to show you anything.  I’m sure both of us can google a bunch of articles.  I read Coates and the response.  I agree with the response.  If you want to convince me I’m wrong, you’ll have to do more than act like a snob.  Ultimately, after we’ve read a bunch of articles, we have to make up our own minds and form an opinion. We are not doing Ph.D dissertations here.  This a neighborhood bar.  Don’t expect much more.

Oops, my bad.  You’d rather we spout opinions at each other and get no where.  You don’t want new information, you just want to feel comfortable in your opinion.

If you want to have your “bar conversation”, why don’t you start a different thread? Seems like the more “friendly” thing to do than coming into this thread and being pissed about being called out on not adhering to the threads goals.  If I made a shit thread, you guys can just let it die by not replying.

EN posted a reasonable response. And he is right, you’re acting like an academic snob. Your thread, you can act as you wish, but you also get what your attitude invites in response. If you want to demonstrate your expertise on the topic, feel free, but don’t expect people to just fall in line and worship your brilliance.

 
Traces Elk
 
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Traces Elk
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16 December 2019 22:02
 
Garret - 16 December 2019 03:10 PM

This is just scratching the surface on the amount of work that has been done to discuss the topic in academic circles.  If a person were to have an open mind on the topic, I would think that they would want to at least consider scratching the surface, or speak to someone who has, before they form an opinion.

It’s a lot easier to make a case for reparations by citing chosen historical events than it is to say whose pockets should be ransacked, and for how much. I skimmed Coates’ article in Atlantic, and viewed the usual litany of cheats, discriminations, or general unfairness. Sure, you or any student of this history can draw arbitrary lines on the problem. It looks to me like advocacy of bringing a long line of court cases in a lot of local jurisdictions whose pockets are no longer very deep. It’s fine to make an abstract case for reparations, and that should squeeze out a little more white guilt among parties who have not already given at the office.

And yes, get down off your high horse of credentials you claim imperiously and cannot demonstrate in an anonymous internet forum. Having access to making unlimited citations from (electronically accessed) volumes in an academic library is a privilege few of us have. Go back to arguing these minutiae with your academic colleagues who have equivalent capacity to engage in a battle of citations.

[ Edited: 16 December 2019 22:08 by Traces Elk]
 
 
Traces Elk
 
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Traces Elk
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16 December 2019 22:13
 
burt - 16 December 2019 07:28 PM
Garret - 16 December 2019 06:40 PM
EN - 16 December 2019 05:03 PM
Garret - 16 December 2019 03:10 PM
EN - 16 December 2019 12:58 PM

Here is a response to Mr. Coates.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/05/case-against-reparations-kevin-d-williamson/

You’ve shown me you were able to google “case against reparations”.  You have not demonstrated you’ve even opened either article.

When I said I’ve seen these same arguments from high schoolers who forgot to do the reading, I am being literal.

If you want more articles that I’ve read, PM me, and we can figure something out, but I’m not going to put the forum in jeopardy by posting links to copyrighted material.  As far as debate goes though, what you’ve shown me on the issue of reparations is waste of my time.  If I’m going to think about the issue, I’m going to go back to my professional work.

As for Mr. Williamson’s editorial, at best it is a response to Coates own editorial.  Seeing as there is nearly a century of history of writing on the subject, including many books both in regards to the history and legality of the issue, Mr. Williamson doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface of dealing with the complexity of what is being discussed.  His article rests on a solitary strawman that it looks like he doesn’t even realize he is doing.  He might be decently versed in contemporary statistics on the economic situation of black Americans, but he has little to no understanding of the legal complexity or precedent.  In fact, he completely ignores the largest precedence cited by Coates, which indicates to me that he does not appear to have fully understood what Coates is calling for.

I linked Coates article as a way for you to start learning about the topic.  Not as the be-all-end-all that you need to refute.

Some other authors to consider:
Randall Robinson
Robert Allen
Adrienne Davis
Kimberle Crenshaw
RDG Kelley
William Darity Jr.
Clarence Munford
Robert Fullinwider

(Fullwinder and Munford also cite a plethora of law professors if that avenue is interesting)

This is just scratching the surface on the amount of work that has been done to discuss the topic in academic circles.  If a person were to have an open mind on the topic, I would think that they would want to at least consider scratching the surface, or speak to someone who has, before they form an opinion.

You showed me you could google when you linked us to Mr Coates’ article.  I’m not here to be graded by you, Teach, or to show you anything.  I’m sure both of us can google a bunch of articles.  I read Coates and the response.  I agree with the response.  If you want to convince me I’m wrong, you’ll have to do more than act like a snob.  Ultimately, after we’ve read a bunch of articles, we have to make up our own minds and form an opinion. We are not doing Ph.D dissertations here.  This a neighborhood bar.  Don’t expect much more.

Oops, my bad.  You’d rather we spout opinions at each other and get no where.  You don’t want new information, you just want to feel comfortable in your opinion.

If you want to have your “bar conversation”, why don’t you start a different thread? Seems like the more “friendly” thing to do than coming into this thread and being pissed about being called out on not adhering to the threads goals.  If I made a shit thread, you guys can just let it die by not replying.

EN posted a reasonable response. And he is right, you’re acting like an academic snob. Your thread, you can act as you wish, but you also get what your attitude invites in response. If you want to demonstrate your expertise on the topic, feel free, but don’t expect people to just fall in line and worship your brilliance.

By itself, having access to the literature does not guarantee brilliance, as I have indicated in the post just previous. Yes, you and EN called it: Academic snobbery. There are reasons that a lot of this literature is locked up behind a pay-wall: academic publishers are businesses. Not all of the reasons knock me over. I’m sure a number of us at least at one time had access to the riches of an academic library. Seldom have I seen, however, an attempt like this to lord it over interlocutors on the bare issue of access.

It looks on the surface as if a full-time academic has time to hang out in internet chat-rooms and tell his colleagues there to “start another thread”. It wouldn’t be the first time somebody with access tried to win a chat-room argument with nothing more than access.

[ Edited: 16 December 2019 22:22 by Traces Elk]
 
 
Garret
 
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Garret
Total Posts:  666
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16 December 2019 23:06
 
Traces Elk - 16 December 2019 10:13 PM

[
It looks on the surface as if a full-time academic has time to hang out in internet chat-rooms and tell his colleagues there to “start another thread”. It wouldn’t be the first time somebody with access tried to win a chat-room argument with nothing more than access.

Yeah, I’d be a serious asshole to hide behind access and never once offer a way to get access to some of the same materials.

I’ve offered up 5 times now ways to have this discussion in a serious and informed manner.

But hey, call me a snob and… dismiss me out of hand?  Huh… that sounds like some sort of behavior… I can’t put my finger on it though.

Let me know when you guys are done with your bitchfest that someone might know something you don’t yet.

[ Edited: 16 December 2019 23:12 by Garret]
 
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