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Conspiracy time - did Iran down Ukrainian Jet?  Did Epstein off himself?

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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09 January 2020 12:47
 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-officials-highly-likely-iran-downed-ukrainian-jetliner/ar-BBYLJo2?li=BBnbfcL

The timing is interesting.  I’m not really a conspiracy person, but this seems highly suspicious.

Also, maybe there has been another thread on the Epstein suicide, but if there’s any conspiracy theory that has some weight - this is it.  Too many things that point to funny business.  This isn’t like 9/11 being an inside job or we didn’t land on the moon or Elvis is still alive.  I’ve got people telling me I’m reading too much into this one, that it’s obvious the guy killed himself.  Anyone else feel like this is cut and dry?

 
Brick Bungalow
 
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09 January 2020 13:09
 
DEGENERATEON - 09 January 2020 12:47 PM

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-officials-highly-likely-iran-downed-ukrainian-jetliner/ar-BBYLJo2?li=BBnbfcL

The timing is interesting.  I’m not really a conspiracy person, but this seems highly suspicious.

Also, maybe there has been another thread on the Epstein suicide, but if there’s any conspiracy theory that has some weight - this is it.  Too many things that point to funny business.  This isn’t like 9/11 being an inside job or we didn’t land on the moon or Elvis is still alive.  I’ve got people telling me I’m reading too much into this one, that it’s obvious the guy killed himself.  Anyone else feel like this is cut and dry?


I think ‘conspiracy theory’ is an unfortunate phrase in popular circulation. We do need a term that points to the the kind fallacious presumption that attaches conspiracies to events without good evidence. Or the underlying mentality that imagines causative links between anything and everything one happens to disagree with.

At the same time it’s a phrase that too easily waves away legitimate theories about actual conspiracies.

 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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09 January 2020 13:18
 

If they had weight, they would not be conspiracy theories.

There is a normal pattern with these questions. First there is a plethora of plausibilities and excited speculation. Then, in a year or so, it will get pieced together in an episode of Frontline.

 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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09 January 2020 13:37
 
Nhoj Morley - 09 January 2020 01:18 PM

If they had weight, they would not be conspiracy theories.

There is a normal pattern with these questions. First there is a plethora of plausibilities and excited speculation. Then, in a year or so, it will get pieced together in an episode of Frontline.

What amount of weight tips the scales?  You have obviously false theories like Sandy Hook or the moon landing was staged.  The Epstein thing has enough weight (in my view) that calling it a conspiracy theory just tosses it in with the obviously false ones (to Brick’s point). 

So can we just call this Epstein thing a legitimate theory?  I’m not saying I even believe it, just that there are enough factors that would take it out of tin-foil hat territory.

 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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09 January 2020 14:45
 

Obviously, Epstein didn’t kill himself. He escaped. He was on the Ukrainian jet! That’s why Hillary shot it down.

 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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09 January 2020 15:56
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 09 January 2020 02:45 PM

Obviously, Epstein didn’t kill himself. He escaped. He was on the Ukrainian jet! That’s why Hillary shot it down.

I knew the Clintons were involved somehow, the pieces are all coming together!

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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09 January 2020 16:20
 

It looks like the intelligence from several countries are confident an Iranian missile was responsible for the destruction of the jet.  Iran promises American bloodshed and ends up wiping out dozens of their citizens.  Along with many Canadians and Ukrainians.

 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
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09 January 2020 22:56
 

I think of it in terms of gradations. Considering both the case and the source.

1. implausible, incoherent and/or at verifiable odds with known facts.
2. remotely plausible but very unlikely and unsupported by facts. .
3. plausible and would account for some proportion of the facts but can be ruled out logically or by a preponderance of evidence.
4. plausible with limited factual support but compromised by bias, coercion or refusal to acknowledge relevant information. (most theories in popular circulation imo)
5. plausible with limited factual support tabled awaiting more compelling evidence or the rebuttal of better explanations
6. plausible and consistent with known facts
7. beyond reasonable doubt

 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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10 January 2020 08:39
 
DEGENERATEON - 09 January 2020 04:20 PM

It looks like the intelligence from several countries are confident an Iranian missile was responsible for the destruction of the jet.  Iran promises American bloodshed and ends up wiping out dozens of their citizens.  Along with many Canadians and Ukrainians.

Sure, the Iranians probably shot it down, but—according to California congresswoman Jackie Speier—it never would have happened if Trump hadn’t pulled out of the Iran deal.

By that same logic, the Russians (or was it the Ukrainians?) never would have shot down that Malaysian airliner if Obama hadn’t precipitated the civil war in Ukraine.

 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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10 January 2020 10:07
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 10 January 2020 08:39 AM
DEGENERATEON - 09 January 2020 04:20 PM

It looks like the intelligence from several countries are confident an Iranian missile was responsible for the destruction of the jet.  Iran promises American bloodshed and ends up wiping out dozens of their citizens.  Along with many Canadians and Ukrainians.

Sure, the Iranians probably shot it down, but—according to California congresswoman Jackie Speier—it never would have happened if Trump hadn’t pulled out of the Iran deal.

By that same logic, the Russians (or was it the Ukrainians?) never would have shot down that Malaysian airliner if Obama hadn’t precipitated the civil war in Ukraine.

Jackie sounds like my wife.  “Well if you woulda went grocery shopping last night like I told you then you coulda put gas in my car and then I wouldn’t have to stop this morning and be late for work!”

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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10 January 2020 10:38
 

The flippancy displayed on this thread in regards to the very recent loss of 176 innocent lives is sad and discouraging.  Where is the empathy?

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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10 January 2020 11:35
 
Jan_CAN - 10 January 2020 10:38 AM

The flippancy displayed on this thread in regards to the very recent loss of 176 innocent lives is sad and discouraging.  Where is the empathy?

That’s an odd way to put it. If you’d said, “respect” or “consideration” instead of “empathy,” I could understand and even agree, somewhat. But “empathy?” Doesn’t that imply that it’s something a person can choose to experience—or not? Is that how empathy works? Or are you chastising those of us who don’t automatically experience empathy for anonymous strangers? Implying that not having a hair-trigger empathic response is symptomatic of a flawed conscience?

 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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10 January 2020 11:42
 
Jan_CAN - 10 January 2020 10:38 AM

The flippancy displayed on this thread in regards to the very recent loss of 176 innocent lives is sad and discouraging.  Where is the empathy?

I don’t see where I’ve been flippant over the loss of innocent lives.  I certainly don’t feel that way - it’s a tragedy and I don’t find anything humorous about people being killed.

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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10 January 2020 12:26
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 10 January 2020 11:35 AM
Jan_CAN - 10 January 2020 10:38 AM

The flippancy displayed on this thread in regards to the very recent loss of 176 innocent lives is sad and discouraging.  Where is the empathy?

That’s an odd way to put it. If you’d said, “respect” or “consideration” instead of “empathy,” I could understand and even agree, somewhat. But “empathy?” Doesn’t that imply that it’s something a person can choose to experience—or not? Is that how empathy works? Or are you chastising those of us who don’t automatically experience empathy for anonymous strangers? Implying that not having a hair-trigger empathic response is symptomatic of a flawed conscience?

Whatever way it is ‘put’, what words are chosen – empathy, sympathy, respect, consideration – your posts here (e.g. #4) don’t seem to show any of these.  And yeah, a certain amount of these are needed for an effective conscience.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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10 January 2020 12:27
 
DEGENERATEON - 10 January 2020 11:42 AM
Jan_CAN - 10 January 2020 10:38 AM

The flippancy displayed on this thread in regards to the very recent loss of 176 innocent lives is sad and discouraging.  Where is the empathy?

I don’t see where I’ve been flippant over the loss of innocent lives.  I certainly don’t feel that way - it’s a tragedy and I don’t find anything humorous about people being killed.

I appreciate that now; my comment was not directed at you specifically.

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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10 January 2020 12:48
 
Jan_CAN - 10 January 2020 12:26 PM
Antisocialdarwinist - 10 January 2020 11:35 AM
Jan_CAN - 10 January 2020 10:38 AM

The flippancy displayed on this thread in regards to the very recent loss of 176 innocent lives is sad and discouraging.  Where is the empathy?

That’s an odd way to put it. If you’d said, “respect” or “consideration” instead of “empathy,” I could understand and even agree, somewhat. But “empathy?” Doesn’t that imply that it’s something a person can choose to experience—or not? Is that how empathy works? Or are you chastising those of us who don’t automatically experience empathy for anonymous strangers? Implying that not having a hair-trigger empathic response is symptomatic of a flawed conscience?

Whatever way it is ‘put’, what words are chosen – empathy, sympathy, respect, consideration – your posts here (e.g. #4) don’t seem to show any of these.  And yeah, a certain amount of these are needed for an effective conscience.

Are you sure you don’t have that backwards? As in, an effective conscience is needed for a certain amount of empathy?

 
 
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