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When will nations cease to matter?

 
BarfootSage
 
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BarfootSage
Total Posts:  51
Joined  08-12-2019
 
 
 
12 January 2020 09:35
 

Fair enough.  I have a preference for the Sam Harris forum because it is where I can find intellectually stimulating conversations and ideas on a level I am looking to cultivate.  (Humanitarian values.)  However, since Sam is against cults in general it is safe to assume that he endorses learning from others as well as what he teaches.  Anyway, it is nice to meet you and I look forward to the opportunity of learning more with you in the future. grin

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  7872
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12 January 2020 10:31
 
BarfootSage - 12 January 2020 09:35 AM

Fair enough.  I have a preference for the Sam Harris forum because it is where I can find intellectually stimulating conversations and ideas on a level I am looking to cultivate.  (Humanitarian values.)  However, since Sam is against cults in general it is safe to assume that he endorses learning from others as well as what he teaches.  Anyway, it is nice to meet you and I look forward to the opportunity of learning more with you in the future. grin

FWIW, I have strong secular humanist leanings. For you and me, this probably feels very natural and very much “common sense”. My point is that for much of the world, secular humanism is - quite literally - the work of the devil. The OIC (org. of Islamic cooperation) has 57 member nations and they categorically refused to adopt what seems to me to be a very benign document, the Universal Declaration on Human Rights (UDHR). Instead they created their own, Sharia friendly version, the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam (CDHRI). Remember, this isn’t some fringe organization, the OIC has 57 member nations.

 
 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
Total Posts:  5292
Joined  28-05-2009
 
 
 
12 January 2020 17:09
 
icehorse - 12 January 2020 09:03 AM
Brick Bungalow - 12 January 2020 12:31 AM

I think this transition occurs gradually. More because of blind market forces than any kind of deliberate activism or legislation. I think we can encourage with it by practicing plural humanism and making a general effort to inform ourselves about other people directly rather than simply accepting propaganda.

I don’t think that there are 197 importantly different sets of values in the world, but there are a handful. (We are after all, on the Sam Harris forum.) For example, there seem to be a couple of billion people who think theocracy is a good idea.

I agree we shouldn’t accept propaganda, but I also think we should be really honest about core values.

There are incompatible goals and values in the world. No question. Many Americans are reminded of that quite explicitly in recent years.

While there are huge variety of world views and value structures what I want to suggest is that complete incompatibility on a personal level is rare. I notice that I can move about in most populated regions of the world and generally get along with people. I can adjust to local customs. I can find common ground. I can place a higher value on cooperation than I do on confrontation.

Obvious, right? Except that it’s not. Our political discourse does the opposite. Our national conversation suggests, to me that if we fail to agree on issue A we are precluded on any useful agreement we might find on a whole array of other issues. I think that this compulsion towards polarization is a complete non starter. I don’t think we solve any important issue with this approach. I think it simply empowers certain non partisan entities who profit from discord.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  7872
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
13 January 2020 07:28
 
Brick Bungalow - 12 January 2020 05:09 PM
icehorse - 12 January 2020 09:03 AM
Brick Bungalow - 12 January 2020 12:31 AM

I think this transition occurs gradually. More because of blind market forces than any kind of deliberate activism or legislation. I think we can encourage with it by practicing plural humanism and making a general effort to inform ourselves about other people directly rather than simply accepting propaganda.

I don’t think that there are 197 importantly different sets of values in the world, but there are a handful. (We are after all, on the Sam Harris forum.) For example, there seem to be a couple of billion people who think theocracy is a good idea.

I agree we shouldn’t accept propaganda, but I also think we should be really honest about core values.

There are incompatible goals and values in the world. No question. Many Americans are reminded of that quite explicitly in recent years.

While there are huge variety of world views and value structures what I want to suggest is that complete incompatibility on a personal level is rare. I notice that I can move about in most populated regions of the world and generally get along with people. I can adjust to local customs. I can find common ground. I can place a higher value on cooperation than I do on confrontation.

Obvious, right? Except that it’s not. Our political discourse does the opposite. Our national conversation suggests, to me that if we fail to agree on issue A we are precluded on any useful agreement we might find on a whole array of other issues. I think that this compulsion towards polarization is a complete non starter. I don’t think we solve any important issue with this approach. I think it simply empowers certain non partisan entities who profit from discord.

Mostly agreed. I think “profit from discord” is a nice, pithy summary of a common egregious situation. But another is the politician who touts “American Values™”. I think if people really thought about their values and made them explicit, it would lead to a lot less gullibility.

 
 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
Total Posts:  5292
Joined  28-05-2009
 
 
 
13 January 2020 12:23
 
icehorse - 13 January 2020 07:28 AM

Mostly agreed. I think “profit from discord” is a nice, pithy summary of a common egregious situation. But another is the politician who touts “American Values™”. I think if people really thought about their values and made them explicit, it would lead to a lot less gullibility.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel… Samuel Johnson saw Trump coming from a mile away.

 
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