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Is the United States responsible for civilian jet shot down in Iran?

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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11 January 2020 10:21
 

I started this thread so that it would not hijack another where this question was asked.  So I ask anyone for their thoughts on the matter.  Can the jet shot down by the Iranian military be considered collateral damage due American militarism?
My answer is no.  The Iranian military unintentionally destroyed the jet.  Iran was under no imminent threat from the US.  They wanted revenge for the killing of their military general by using violence.  They didn’t take precautions by restricting commercial flights.  It was a tragic accident, but it was Irans sole responsibility.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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11 January 2020 13:51
 

Indeed!

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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11 January 2020 14:00
 

My answer is yes, the U.S. does bear some responsibility.  Sadly, in such tragic events there is often plenty of blame to go around.


With 176 Dead in Iran on Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752, Does Trump Understand Consequences Yet?
Iran bears full responsibility for this deadly disaster. But it was America that created the conditions for it, and more disasters to come.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/with-176-dead-in-iran-on-ukraine-international-airlines-flight-752-does-trump-understand-consequences-yet

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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11 January 2020 14:15
 
Jan_CAN - 11 January 2020 02:00 PM

My answer is yes, the U.S. does bear some responsibility.  Sadly, in such tragic events there is often plenty of blame to go around.


With 176 Dead in Iran on Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752, Does Trump Understand Consequences Yet?
Iran bears full responsibility for this deadly disaster. But it was America that created the conditions for it, and more disasters to come.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/with-176-dead-in-iran-on-ukraine-international-airlines-flight-752-does-trump-understand-consequences-yet

The real answer is no!

 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
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11 January 2020 15:05
 

Emperor Donald has no clothes.

https://tinyurl.com/vs7xp5e

Trump, of course, disclaims all responsibility, as he habitually does. He’s always been a credit-grabber and a responsibility-dodger. “It was flying in a pretty rough neighborhood,” the president told reporters this morning about the downed airplane. As Gordon Sondland memorably put it, Trump cares only about big things, things that will benefit him personally. The victims of the crash of Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 were not U.S. citizens, and certainly not residents of any state that Trump might win in 2020, so who cares, really? The loss of life had “nothing to do with us.” It was a “mistake on the other side.” The gun just went off; let’s not ask too many questions about who put the bullets in the chamber.

 
 
BarfootSage
 
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BarfootSage
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11 January 2020 16:02
 

Can anyone comment on the legitimate use of force of the U.S. to enact Justice with Iran through the elimination of the National Security threat with a drone strike?

 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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12 January 2020 01:25
 

It is a standard military tactic to put so much pressure on the enemy that they make mistakes.

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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12 January 2020 08:38
 
DEGENERATEON - 11 January 2020 10:21 AM

I started this thread so that it would not hijack another where this question was asked.  So I ask anyone for their thoughts on the matter.  Can the jet shot down by the Iranian military be considered collateral damage due American militarism?
My answer is no.  The Iranian military unintentionally destroyed the jet.  Iran was under no imminent threat from the US.  They wanted revenge for the killing of their military general by using violence.  They didn’t take precautions by restricting commercial flights.  It was a tragic accident, but it was Irans sole responsibility.

I think you can argue either side. The challenge is to be consistent and apply the same logic to similar cases that maybe don’t align so well with your own political biases. The Malaysian airliner shot down over Ukraine a few years ago seems analogous to me. If US meddling in the Middle East is at least partly responsible for the Ukrainian airliner shot down by the Iranians, isn’t US meddling in Ukraine at least partly responsible for the Malaysian airline that got shot down by the Ukrainians? During Obama’s tenure?

The claim that Iran was motivated by “revenge” in this case seems dubious to me. More likely they misidentified the Ukrainian airliner as a US warplane. Not unlike what happened in 1988, when the USS Vincennes misidentified an Iranian airliner as a warplane. I’m guessing that semi-autonomous weapons were probably involved, just as they were in 1988. Little Baby Skynet is just getting warmed up.

Army of None: Autonomous Weapons and the Future of War

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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12 January 2020 08:56
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 12 January 2020 08:38 AM
DEGENERATEON - 11 January 2020 10:21 AM

I started this thread so that it would not hijack another where this question was asked.  So I ask anyone for their thoughts on the matter.  Can the jet shot down by the Iranian military be considered collateral damage due American militarism?
My answer is no.  The Iranian military unintentionally destroyed the jet.  Iran was under no imminent threat from the US.  They wanted revenge for the killing of their military general by using violence.  They didn’t take precautions by restricting commercial flights.  It was a tragic accident, but it was Irans sole responsibility.

I think you can argue either side. The challenge is to be consistent and apply the same logic to similar cases that maybe don’t align so well with your own political biases. The Malaysian airliner shot down over Ukraine a few years ago seems analogous to me. If US meddling in the Middle East is at least partly responsible for the Ukrainian airliner shot down by the Iranians, isn’t US meddling in Ukraine at least partly responsible for the Malaysian airline that got shot down by the Ukrainians? During Obama’s tenure?

The claim that Iran was motivated by “revenge” in this case seems dubious to me. More likely they misidentified the Ukrainian airliner as a US warplane. Not unlike what happened in 1988, when the USS Vincennes misidentified an Iranian airliner as a warplane. I’m guessing that semi-autonomous weapons were probably involved, just as they were in 1988. Little Baby Skynet is just getting warmed up.

Army of None: Autonomous Weapons and the Future of War

I don’t think you can argue it either way. The logic here is bullshit, if you kill a bad guy and someone kills innocent people, they can then blame it on you, bullshit, that makes killing innocent people the best reply to anything thing you don’t like. They fucked up, plain and simple.

 

 
 
burt
 
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burt
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12 January 2020 09:44
 
GAD - 12 January 2020 08:56 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 12 January 2020 08:38 AM
DEGENERATEON - 11 January 2020 10:21 AM

I started this thread so that it would not hijack another where this question was asked.  So I ask anyone for their thoughts on the matter.  Can the jet shot down by the Iranian military be considered collateral damage due American militarism?
My answer is no.  The Iranian military unintentionally destroyed the jet.  Iran was under no imminent threat from the US.  They wanted revenge for the killing of their military general by using violence.  They didn’t take precautions by restricting commercial flights.  It was a tragic accident, but it was Irans sole responsibility.

I think you can argue either side. The challenge is to be consistent and apply the same logic to similar cases that maybe don’t align so well with your own political biases. The Malaysian airliner shot down over Ukraine a few years ago seems analogous to me. If US meddling in the Middle East is at least partly responsible for the Ukrainian airliner shot down by the Iranians, isn’t US meddling in Ukraine at least partly responsible for the Malaysian airline that got shot down by the Ukrainians? During Obama’s tenure?

The claim that Iran was motivated by “revenge” in this case seems dubious to me. More likely they misidentified the Ukrainian airliner as a US warplane. Not unlike what happened in 1988, when the USS Vincennes misidentified an Iranian airliner as a warplane. I’m guessing that semi-autonomous weapons were probably involved, just as they were in 1988. Little Baby Skynet is just getting warmed up.

Army of None: Autonomous Weapons and the Future of War

I don’t think you can argue it either way. The logic here is bullshit, if you kill a bad guy and someone kills innocent people, they can then blame it on you, bullshit, that makes killing innocent people the best reply to anything thing you don’t like. They fucked up, plain and simple.

A little more complicated. You kill the leader of a criminal gang that is robbing a bank, the rest of the gang gets into a shootout with you and there is collateral damage. Is your degree of responsibility related to whether or not you could have handled the situation in a less violent way (e.g., through hostage negotiations). Causality isn’t just a linear thing. Generally, if you carry out an action that creates a context within which bad things happen, even though you don’t actually do those things yourself, is there a degree of responsibility? It’s certainly the case that if the bad guy hadn’t been eliminated the airliner would not have been shot down. In this case, I actually tend to agree with you, can’t accept responsibility for errors made by others, but more generally in these sorts of cases it seems best to think of causality as involving multiple actions that produce potential possibilities and patterns of responsibility distribution over results. And, from a personal point of view, recall the advice of E.J. Gold and “stay away from the meat grinder when it’s busy making hamburger.”

 
Celal
 
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Celal
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12 January 2020 10:08
 

Even IRAN does not blame USA for shooting down the civilian airline. Iran accepted full responsibility at own peril. Yet, the blame game in the West shows how insanely deranged some can be as they are quick to blame on USA and Trump. 

These nuts can not be reasoned with.  I dare say, it is easier to reason with the radical Muslims.

 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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12 January 2020 13:38
 

Cause and Effect

The plane would not have been shot down if Trump hadn’t ordered the killing of General Suleimani.  How can anyone deny that?

Trump and his supporters say that Suleimani posed an imminent threat to 4 U.S. embassies..  U.S. Intelligence knows that’s bullshit.  As George Stephanopoulos asked this morning, “If 4 embassies were under imminent threat, why weren’t those embassies notified and evacuated?” 

Trump killed Suleimani to detract attention from his impeachment.  He will order the killing of ‘enemies of the people’ to show everyone that he is Commander in Chief - the most powerful man on earth, not an impeached liar. 

imminent  adjective

1.  about to happen.  “they were in imminent danger of being swept away”

https://www.vox.com/2020/1/10/21059771/trump-toledo-rally-schiff-soleimani

While Trump did make some news with his comments about why he approved a drone strike in Iraq last Thursday that killed top Iranian military official Qassem Soleimani — more on that later — his first rally of 2020 was similar to ones he’s delivered throughout his presidency. He lied about a number of things and went to extreme lengths to glorify himself, at one point taking credit for a purported religious revival in evangelical churches.

“The evangelicals called, some of the greatest pastors, ministers, preachers — and they just called today, five of the most respected people, and they said things that were incredible,” claimed Trump. “They said, ‘there’s never been anything like this in the church ... we’ve never seen enthusiasm like we see for this president and this presidency.’”

Sounds like the Second Coming.  Suleimani smitten by God?

 


.

[ Edited: 12 January 2020 13:47 by unsmoked]
 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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12 January 2020 14:15
 
unsmoked - 12 January 2020 01:38 PM

Cause and Effect

The plane would not have been shot down if Trump hadn’t ordered the killing of General Suleimani.  How can anyone deny that?

Trump and his supporters say that Suleimani posed an imminent threat to 4 U.S. embassies..  U.S. Intelligence knows that’s bullshit.  As George Stephanopoulos asked this morning, “If 4 embassies were under imminent threat, why weren’t those embassies notified and evacuated?” 

Trump killed Suleimani to detract attention from his impeachment.  He will order the killing of ‘enemies of the people’ to show everyone that he is Commander in Chief - the most powerful man on earth, not an impeached liar. 

imminent  adjective

1.  about to happen.  “they were in imminent danger of being swept away”

https://www.vox.com/2020/1/10/21059771/trump-toledo-rally-schiff-soleimani

While Trump did make some news with his comments about why he approved a drone strike in Iraq last Thursday that killed top Iranian military official Qassem Soleimani — more on that later — his first rally of 2020 was similar to ones he’s delivered throughout his presidency. He lied about a number of things and went to extreme lengths to glorify himself, at one point taking credit for a purported religious revival in evangelical churches.

“The evangelicals called, some of the greatest pastors, ministers, preachers — and they just called today, five of the most respected people, and they said things that were incredible,” claimed Trump. “They said, ‘there’s never been anything like this in the church ... we’ve never seen enthusiasm like we see for this president and this presidency.’”

Sounds like the Second Coming.  Suleimani smitten by God?

 


.

What Trump did, right or wrong, is separate from Iran fucking up.

 
 
Celal
 
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Celal
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12 January 2020 14:21
 

All is not lost as someone discovered the concept of “Cause and Effect”.  Albeit misapplied.
By that thinking, police comes to arrest the murder suspect at his home, he panics and slaughters his family. Police is responsible for the deaths.
By that thinking, man should plead not responsible for the crime of bank robbery because he would not have been tempted but for the money.

Anyways ... you get the idea. That is called loserthink. Not understanding the concept of responsibility. How ironic?

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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12 January 2020 14:34
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 12 January 2020 08:38 AM
DEGENERATEON - 11 January 2020 10:21 AM

I started this thread so that it would not hijack another where this question was asked.  So I ask anyone for their thoughts on the matter.  Can the jet shot down by the Iranian military be considered collateral damage due American militarism?
My answer is no.  The Iranian military unintentionally destroyed the jet.  Iran was under no imminent threat from the US.  They wanted revenge for the killing of their military general by using violence.  They didn’t take precautions by restricting commercial flights.  It was a tragic accident, but it was Irans sole responsibility.

I think you can argue either side. The challenge is to be consistent and apply the same logic to similar cases that maybe don’t align so well with your own political biases. The Malaysian airliner shot down over Ukraine a few years ago seems analogous to me. If US meddling in the Middle East is at least partly responsible for the Ukrainian airliner shot down by the Iranians, isn’t US meddling in Ukraine at least partly responsible for the Malaysian airline that got shot down by the Ukrainians? During Obama’s tenure?

The claim that Iran was motivated by “revenge” in this case seems dubious to me. More likely they misidentified the Ukrainian airliner as a US warplane. Not unlike what happened in 1988, when the USS Vincennes misidentified an Iranian airliner as a warplane. I’m guessing that semi-autonomous weapons were probably involved, just as they were in 1988. Little Baby Skynet is just getting warmed up.

Army of None: Autonomous Weapons and the Future of War

Some confusion on my point - Iran was motivated by revenge to launch the missile attack at US forces in Iraq(not the jet in Iran).  If they had not promised revenge and launched the attack, it’s highly likely the commercial jet would not have been shot down. 
I think an analogy I posted in the other thread (though not perfect) makes sense.

Let’s say there are two families in a neighborhood who don’t get along.  There’s a history of the parents yelling at each other, the kids fighting, and vandalism to property.  One day the boys get in a fistfight and one of the parents shoots the other families boy - killing him.  He is arrested but avoids punishment by some self defense loophole.  The father of the slain child vows revenge, and one night drives by the other family’s house and shoots multiple times at their son’s room.  A friend was staying the night with the boy, and was unintentionally hit by a bullet and killed.  Who is responsible for the innocent friend’s death?

 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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12 January 2020 15:14
 
DEGENERATEON - 12 January 2020 02:34 PM

Some confusion on my point - Iran was motivated by revenge to launch the missile attack at US forces in Iraq(not the jet in Iran).  If they had not promised revenge and launched the attack, it’s highly likely the commercial jet would not have been shot down.

I don’t know if I buy that. It would have been reasonable for Iran to assume that the US might follow up Soleimani with a bomber attack—regardless of whether they launched their own missiles. Unless you’re suggesting that the jet just happened to get in the way of one of the missiles aimed at the US base?

In a narrow sense, I think killing Soleimani was justified. He commanded a unit (Quds) that had been designated a terrorist organization by a previous administration. (From that standpoint, it’s disappointing that we didn’t take him out a long time ago.) Which absolves the US of any responsibility for the jet getting shot down.

The problem I have is whether we ought to be designating military units of sovereign nations as “terrorist organizations.” To me, “terrorist organization” implies stateless. Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization because it’s stateless. The North Korean army is not. In other words, to whatever extent the US is responsible for the civilian jet getting shot down, it’s because Quds was improperly designated a “terrorist organization.” That led to Soleimani getting killed, which led to the jet getting shot down.

Back in the fifties and sixties, the CIA made a habit of assassinating foreign leaders in countries with which we weren’t at war. At some point congress decided not to allow that anymore. Designating Quds a “terrorist organization” seems to me like a means of getting around that prohibition—a violation of the spirit of the rule if not the letter. But maybe it’s time to reconsider that prohibition?

[ Edited: 12 January 2020 15:17 by Antisocialdarwinist]
 
 
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