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How Can You Defend That?

 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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19 January 2020 10:04
 

I recently watched the four part Netflix series When They See Us and it was one of the hardest things I’ve ever forced myself to watch.  It tells the story of the Central Park Five kids who were railroaded into convictions of the rape and savage beating of a jogger in 1989.  This was the famous case that prompted Trump to take out full page ads in several newspapers, calling for their deaths, which contributed to the racial tensions and swayed public opinion.

I didn’t place this in the ‘Our Patron’s Recommendations’ thread for a reason.

After reading so much about White Privilege and Black Lives Matter I figured this incident might be just the right opportunity to find common ground and understand the gravity of racial discrimination and the reach it seems to have.  These guys were exonerated because they were innocent.  And if the injustice itself isn’t hard enough to shake consider the fact that some people refuse to accept the truth and still maintain their guilt.  Including that guy in the white house.   

That is what I want to discuss.  The drawing of conclusions and how they are defended.  There is rationalizing after the fact, a common human foible, but this stretches far beyond that and ventures into cover up territory.  And, as this case demonstrates, lying can be a very destructive force with lingering effects.  The power of the gavel and the hand in which it wields.

When evidence fails to match the conclusions that you reach…how can you defend that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3F9n_smGWY

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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19 January 2020 10:37
 
LadyJane - 19 January 2020 10:04 AM

I recently watched the four part Netflix series When They See Us and it was one of the hardest things I’ve ever forced myself to watch.  It tells the story of the Central Park Five kids who were railroaded into convictions of the rape and savage beating of a jogger in 1989.  This was the famous case that prompted Trump to take out full page ads in several newspapers, calling for their deaths, which contributed to the racial tensions and swayed public opinion.

I didn’t place this in the ‘Our Patron’s Recommendations’ thread for a reason.

After reading so much about White Privilege and Black Lives Matter I figured this incident might be just the right opportunity to find common ground and understand the gravity of racial discrimination and the reach it seems to have.  These guys were exonerated because they were innocent.  And if the injustice itself isn’t hard enough to shake consider the fact that some people refuse to accept the truth and still maintain their guilt.  Including that guy in the white house.   

That is what I want to discuss.  The drawing of conclusions and how they are defended.  There is rationalizing after the fact, a common human foible, but this stretches far beyond that and ventures into cover up territory.  And, as this case demonstrates, lying can be a very destructive force with lingering effects.  The power of the gavel and the hand in which it wields.

When evidence fails to match the conclusions that you reach…how can you defend that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3F9n_smGWY

White Privilege is made up to support an agenda, like, Black Lives Matter… Can you troll through history and find tragedy and injustice to support any agenda, belief, identity politics, social justice, etc yes. Can you make a gut wrenching 4hr movie about them, yes, can you chain 10 years of sound bites together and get 4hr documentary like The Great Divide, yes. Do they mean anything in context, no.   


To answer your question “When evidence fails to match the conclusions that you reach…how can you defend that?”, all you have to do is look at religion, it has failed for 1000’s of years yet it dominates the world and literally billions live, die and fight for it. 

 

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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19 January 2020 10:53
 

That zeroes in on exactly what I mean.  What causes that switch to go off in the brains of those refusing to accept evidence and replace it with things they prefer to believe?  Religion is the perfect example.  It defies reality.  This film, and the Frontline documentary, places these events in an accurate historical context.  When you dismiss racial discrimination, at every turn, I want to know how you can defend that.

 
 
BarfootSage
 
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BarfootSage
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19 January 2020 11:05
 

Empowerment lies in taking a different path.  This appears to be a very powerful movie.  Worthy of making and worthy of discussing.  What the movie seems to excel at is to strike an emotional chord.  We the People do not lack sincerity.  Remember the response of any number of natural disasters when regular citizens from all social classes and backgrounds stepped up to contribute in disaster relief.  This empowered those who gave and offered real response in the wake of a tragedy.  It empowered because people they were not deliberating.  Charles Burkowski’s whole schtick in the portrayal of an authentic life (as a writer) without selling out was ‘don’t try DO.’
Where do we go with truth in a broken system??
We create new Justice for new Truth in the system.

 
 
BarfootSage
 
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BarfootSage
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19 January 2020 11:09
 

‘It gets worse before it gets better’ can be a sign of real healing.  Stay the course with a whole heart knowing what is true.  Conflict is not the opposite of Peace.  Death is a natural phenomenon of life and living through death offers great wisdom.  Wisdom is not experience based.  Wisdom is truth based.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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19 January 2020 11:14
 
LadyJane - 19 January 2020 10:53 AM

That zeroes in on exactly what I mean.  What causes that switch to go off in the brains of those refusing to accept evidence and replace it with things they prefer to believe?  Religion is the perfect example.  It defies reality.  This film, and the Frontline documentary, places these events in an accurate historical context.  When you dismiss racial discrimination, at every turn, I want to know how you can defend that.

I don’t dismiss racial discrimination, I accept it, for there to be no racial discrimination (or any other kind) in the world there would have to be no people in the world. When you watch these shows you see a systematically terrible world, I see an instance or injustice that needs to be addressed. You watch these kind of shows to get emotional and outraged to fuel your bad white people views, but you ignore things like the Rwandan genocide, you want horror go look at that, there were no white people but that was far worse then anything you can image, and it’s just one of many in my lifetime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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19 January 2020 11:30
 
GAD - 19 January 2020 11:14 AM
LadyJane - 19 January 2020 10:53 AM

That zeroes in on exactly what I mean.  What causes that switch to go off in the brains of those refusing to accept evidence and replace it with things they prefer to believe?  Religion is the perfect example.  It defies reality.  This film, and the Frontline documentary, places these events in an accurate historical context.  When you dismiss racial discrimination, at every turn, I want to know how you can defend that.

I don’t dismiss racial discrimination, I accept it, for there to be no racial discrimination (or any other kind) in the world there would have to be no people in the world. When you watch these shows you see a systematically terrible world, I see an instance or injustice that needs to be addressed. You watch these kind of shows to get emotional and outraged to fuel your bad white people views, but you ignore things like the Rwandan genocide, you want horror go look at that, there were no white people but that was far worse then anything you can image, and it’s just one of many in my lifetime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide

There are a lot of assumptions in that post.  I am also of the generation that witnessed the horrendous events in Rwanda.  It rattled me as well and became the sole reason for joining Romeo Dallaire’s Child Soldiers Initiative.

Just imagine what else you don’t know about me.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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19 January 2020 12:17
 
LadyJane - 19 January 2020 11:30 AM
GAD - 19 January 2020 11:14 AM
LadyJane - 19 January 2020 10:53 AM

That zeroes in on exactly what I mean.  What causes that switch to go off in the brains of those refusing to accept evidence and replace it with things they prefer to believe?  Religion is the perfect example.  It defies reality.  This film, and the Frontline documentary, places these events in an accurate historical context.  When you dismiss racial discrimination, at every turn, I want to know how you can defend that.

I don’t dismiss racial discrimination, I accept it, for there to be no racial discrimination (or any other kind) in the world there would have to be no people in the world. When you watch these shows you see a systematically terrible world, I see an instance or injustice that needs to be addressed. You watch these kind of shows to get emotional and outraged to fuel your bad white people views, but you ignore things like the Rwandan genocide, you want horror go look at that, there were no white people but that was far worse then anything you can image, and it’s just one of many in my lifetime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide

There are a lot of assumptions in that post.  I am also of the generation that witnessed the horrendous events in Rwanda.  It rattled me as well and became the sole reason for joining Romeo Dallaire’s Child Soldiers Initiative.

Just imagine what else you don’t know about me.

How would I know when all you post thread after thread, post after post, is that white people are bad?

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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19 January 2020 13:23
 

The old expression you never get a second chance to make a first impression never accounted for the Internet.  There’s nothing to describe what it’s like when someone takes that away from you by slandering you before you get the chance.  And insists on filling in the space of your silence. 

When the activist movements were in full swing the conversations round here were plenty.  Whatever views were expressed at that time conjured images of fellow patrons making mental notes in our memories.  Amounting to a brief glimpse into the minds holding the opinions.

We must be careful not to create a caricature of other posters based on one glimpse alone.  And let everything they ever say to come through the lens of that caricature we created.  That isn’t real and it means we’re not listening.  It also never allows room for anyone to change their mind. 

If an intrusive and obsessive thought that isn’t real takes hold it creates a delusion.  And, given time to fester, it will repeat itself to the point of parting ways with reality.  People believe crazy things but it only poses a problem when it effects the lives of others.  So must be kept in check.

Another cautionary anecdote to illustrate my point…

Almost immediately after becoming an administrator a letter was sent anonymously to the ubers by another forum member stating that I threatened them and their family and was therefore an irresponsible choice for moderator.  An absurd claim that had no relationship with reality.

However, I had no trouble understanding how real it seemed to them.  What I imagine as a persistent anxious feeling that was manifested true.  A misperception left unchecked.  It’s the difference between feeling intimidated or threatened and being intimidated or threatened.

I distance myself from people when I witness this behaviour.  Hoping the misperception passes so they can move onto other matters.  And to not become the scapegoat in the drama they’ve created.  Beyond that…there’s really not a lot I can do. 

This wasn’t the first unfortunate slight attached to my name but it was the first impression that would make its way upstairs.  Luckily for me the ubers have very little interest in this forum.  It reminds me to pay close attention to who is shaping these impressions and who is notably impressed.

A steady trail of bread crumbs would lead directly to the grudging culprit and they haven’t posted since.  I think I understand why. 

Coz how can you defend that?

 
 
Vociferous Fuckweasel
 
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Vociferous Fuckweasel
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19 January 2020 14:30
 
GAD - 19 January 2020 12:17 PM
LadyJane - 19 January 2020 11:30 AM
GAD - 19 January 2020 11:14 AM
LadyJane - 19 January 2020 10:53 AM

That zeroes in on exactly what I mean.  What causes that switch to go off in the brains of those refusing to accept evidence and replace it with things they prefer to believe?  Religion is the perfect example.  It defies reality.  This film, and the Frontline documentary, places these events in an accurate historical context.  When you dismiss racial discrimination, at every turn, I want to know how you can defend that.

I don’t dismiss racial discrimination, I accept it, for there to be no racial discrimination (or any other kind) in the world there would have to be no people in the world. When you watch these shows you see a systematically terrible world, I see an instance or injustice that needs to be addressed. You watch these kind of shows to get emotional and outraged to fuel your bad white people views, but you ignore things like the Rwandan genocide, you want horror go look at that, there were no white people but that was far worse then anything you can image, and it’s just one of many in my lifetime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide

There are a lot of assumptions in that post.  I am also of the generation that witnessed the horrendous events in Rwanda.  It rattled me as well and became the sole reason for joining Romeo Dallaire’s Child Soldiers Initiative.

Just imagine what else you don’t know about me.

How would I know when all you post thread after thread, post after post, is that white people are bad?

GAD, I’ll go out on a limb and venture that this dill pickle is as white as the driven snow.

 

 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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19 January 2020 15:14
 
LadyJane - 19 January 2020 10:04 AM

I recently watched the four part Netflix series When They See Us and it was one of the hardest things I’ve ever forced myself to watch.  It tells the story of the Central Park Five kids who were railroaded into convictions of the rape and savage beating of a jogger in 1989.  This was the famous case that prompted Trump to take out full page ads in several newspapers, calling for their deaths, which contributed to the racial tensions and swayed public opinion.

I didn’t place this in the ‘Our Patron’s Recommendations’ thread for a reason.

After reading so much about White Privilege and Black Lives Matter I figured this incident might be just the right opportunity to find common ground and understand the gravity of racial discrimination and the reach it seems to have.  These guys were exonerated because they were innocent.  And if the injustice itself isn’t hard enough to shake consider the fact that some people refuse to accept the truth and still maintain their guilt.  Including that guy in the white house.   

That is what I want to discuss.  The drawing of conclusions and how they are defended.  There is rationalizing after the fact, a common human foible, but this stretches far beyond that and ventures into cover up territory.  And, as this case demonstrates, lying can be a very destructive force with lingering effects.  The power of the gavel and the hand in which it wields.

When evidence fails to match the conclusions that you reach…how can you defend that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3F9n_smGWY

Are you convinced the Central Park 5 are innocent?  Have you researched the topic beyond the dramatic netfix series?  Who are the “they” and “us” in the title? 
I would say that the evidence I’ve seen shows that the five were definitely in the park and attacking people.  They also attacked the jogger, and one of them had a scratch on his eye which started a closer look from investigators when he offered that he got the scratch from the female jogger.  Very possible that they raped the jogger.  These confessions weren’t forced, you can see them all online if you look for them.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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19 January 2020 15:41
 
LadyJane - 19 January 2020 01:23 PM

The old expression you never get a second chance to make a first impression never accounted for the Internet.  There’s nothing to describe what it’s like when someone takes that away from you by slandering you before you get the chance.  And insists on filling in the space of your silence. 

When the activist movements were in full swing the conversations round here were plenty.  Whatever views were expressed at that time conjured images of fellow patrons making mental notes in our memories.  Amounting to a brief glimpse into the minds holding the opinions.

We must be careful not to create a caricature of other posters based on one glimpse alone.  And let everything they ever say to come through the lens of that caricature we created.  That isn’t real and it means we’re not listening.  It also never allows room for anyone to change their mind. 

If an intrusive and obsessive thought that isn’t real takes hold it creates a delusion.  And, given time to fester, it will repeat itself to the point of parting ways with reality.  People believe crazy things but it only poses a problem when it effects the lives of others.  So must be kept in check.

Another cautionary anecdote to illustrate my point…

Almost immediately after becoming an administrator a letter was sent anonymously to the ubers by another forum member stating that I threatened them and their family and was therefore an irresponsible choice for moderator.  An absurd claim that had no relationship with reality.

However, I had no trouble understanding how real it seemed to them.  What I imagine as a persistent anxious feeling that was manifested true.  A misperception left unchecked.  It’s the difference between feeling intimidated or threatened and being intimidated or threatened.

I distance myself from people when I witness this behaviour.  Hoping the misperception passes so they can move onto other matters.  And to not become the scapegoat in the drama they’ve created.  Beyond that…there’s really not a lot I can do. 

This wasn’t the first unfortunate slight attached to my name but it was the first impression that would make its way upstairs.  Luckily for me the ubers have very little interest in this forum.  It reminds me to pay close attention to who is shaping these impressions and who is notably impressed.

A steady trail of bread crumbs would lead directly to the grudging culprit and they haven’t posted since.  I think I understand why. 

Coz how can you defend that?

It’s interesting, half the people say Trump is bad, he says they are wrong, they point to his history and things hes says, he says he is a savior and they are just trying to stop him from making the world better. Half the people on the forum complain about your views and veiled admin threats, you say they are wrong, they point to your history and things you say, you act like you are a savior and they are just trying to stop you from making the world better. What makes Trump think he is right, that his views are the right ones, what make you think you are right, that your views are right ones.

 

 
 
BarfootSage
 
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BarfootSage
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19 January 2020 15:42
 

after watching pre-opening tennis matches in the Australian Open I had this realization after one of the shots was played on and lost but challenged in time by a line judge for review.  This beautiful computer generated image of the shot shows up on screen and replays the shot after analysis from algorithms designed to make near perfect predictions of the actual shot.  The shot was in fact OUT.  And all several million viewers including players instantly agree (reaching a consensus) and put it to rest and move on with the game.  In this instance the outcome in the use of this algorithm is good.  Why can’t we find more instances to use tech. and algorithms for good??

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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19 January 2020 15:47
 
BarfootSage - 19 January 2020 03:42 PM

after watching pre-opening tennis matches in the Australian Open I had this realization after one of the shots was played on and lost but challenged in time by a line judge for review.  This beautiful computer generated image of the shot shows up on screen and replays the shot after analysis from algorithms designed to make near perfect predictions of the actual shot.  The shot was in fact OUT.  And all several million viewers including players instantly agree (reaching a consensus) and put it to rest and move on with the game.  In this instance the outcome in the use of this algorithm is good.  Why can’t we find more instances to use tech. and algorithms for good??

Because it takes our subjective views away, and for the talk of being objective what we really thrive on is the gray areas of what we want and believe could be.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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19 January 2020 16:08
 
DEGENERATEON - 19 January 2020 03:14 PM

Are you convinced the Central Park 5 are innocent?  Have you researched the topic beyond the dramatic netfix series?  Who are the “they” and “us” in the title? 
I would say that the evidence I’ve seen shows that the five were definitely in the park and attacking people.  They also attacked the jogger, and one of them had a scratch on his eye which started a closer look from investigators when he offered that he got the scratch from the female jogger.  Very possible that they raped the jogger.  These confessions weren’t forced, you can see them all online if you look for them.

I remember vividly when it happened and was compelled to follow the story over the past thirty years.  It never sat right and it never made sense and this film is another opportunity to piece things together.  Another opportunity to calmly talk about it during these racially charged times.

I didn’t know the meaning behind the title of the film.  So I just googled it.  The director explains the title as embracing “the humanity of the men and not their politicized moniker.”

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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19 January 2020 16:53
 
GAD - 19 January 2020 03:41 PM

It’s interesting, half the people say Trump is bad,

Half of which people?  Where do you get yer stats?

he says they are wrong, they point to his history and things hes says,

And that is remarkably easy to do with a compulsive liar who can’t stop tweeting.

he says he is a savior and they are just trying to stop him from making the world better.

I’ve never heard him call himself a saviour.  I’ve heard him call himself “The Chosen One.”  Making the world better?

Half the people on the forum complain about your views and veiled admin threats,

Whowhatwherenow?  By veiled threats…do you mean non existent?

you say they are wrong, they point to your history and things you say,

I do?  They do?  Whereabouts?  You are the only one talking and can only speak for yerself.  You are not pointing at history or anything I have ever said.

you act like you are a savior and they are just trying to stop you from making the world better.

If by “they” you mean “you” then I’m thinking you are seeing an act in a play I’m not in.  Making the world better?  Say what? 

What makes Trump think he is right, that his views are the right ones,

 
I would guess malignant narcissism and sociopathy.

what make you think you are right, that your views are right ones.

I don’t necessarily.  That’s why I start conversations like these.

 
 
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