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UkraineGate—Inconvenient Facts

 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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03 February 2020 09:47
 

From an organization called Les Crises, a three-part investigative documentary about the Bidens’ dealings with the Ukrainian gas company Burisma and its founder Mykola Zlochevsky.

Part 1: A Not So Solid Prosecutor
Part 2: Not So Dormant Investigations
Part 3: A Not So Noble President

First, a bit of a disclaimer about Les Crisis: a French organization accused of having a pro-Russia bias. Which would make them anti-Biden, since Biden is rabidly anti-Russia. The documentary is one sided in that it does not present a defense of the Biden Narrative. But since you’re probably already aware of the Biden Narrative, which has been portrayed as The Truth by the leftstream media, you don’t really need to hear it again.

Mykola Zlochevsky got his big break in the gas industry when he obtained the position of Minister of Ecology under President Viktor Yanukovych, who was Vladimir Putin’s corrupt man in Kiev before the Maidan Revolution in 2014. As Ukraine’s Minister of Ecology, Zlochevsky steered all the country’s most lucrative mining licenses to his company, Burisma during Ukraine’s transition to privatization.

Yanukovych was ousted in a US and Europe backed coup and replaced with our corrupt man in Kiev, Petro Poroshenko, in 2014. Poroshenko and his Prosecutor General, Vitaly Yarema, made a killing investigating corrupt Ukrainian companies like Burisma, then extorting bribes from them in exchange for ending the investigations. As a defense against becoming a victim of Poroshenko’s extortion scheme, Zlochevsky hired Hunter Biden as a Burisma board member. It is absolutely clear that the only reason Zlochevsky hired Hunter Biden was because he thought it would help keep him from becoming victimized by President Poroshenko and his corrupt Prosecutor General.

Keep in mind a couple of things here. First, the fact that Poroshenko was extorting money from corrupt Ukrainian companies doesn’t change the fact that the Ukrainian companies, including Burisma, were engaging in corrupt practices. The investigations themselves were legitimate in that respect; only their resolutions were corrupt: the investigations were concluded after the companies bribed Poroshenko.

Also, the fact that Zlochevsky hired Hunter Biden for corrupt reasons does not in and of itself prove that Hunter or his father engaged in any corrupt behavior themselves. Maybe hiring Hunter was just a bad business decision on Zlochevsky’s part, right?

In February 2015, President Poroshenko replaced Yarema (the Prosecutor General) with Viktor Shokin, the man Biden later bragged about getting fired by threatening to withhold loan guarantees to Ukraine. Shokin was pursuing six charges of corruption against Burisma when Poroshenko fired him, eventually replacing him with Yuriy Lutsenko.

According to the Biden Narrative, Shokin was corrupt and Lutsenko was pure as the driven snow. And it wasn’t just Biden who wanted Shokin fired, it was allegedly a host of European leaders as well. According to the documentary, Shokin was pure as the driven snow and Lutsenko was the one who was corrupt. They make a pretty good case with respect to Lutsenko, who had no legal expertise and had actually been convicted and jailed for corruption years before.

The case for Shokin not being corrupt is shakier. My guess is, they were both corrupt. The only difference was, Shokin was a corrupt prosecutor who refused to stop investigating Burisma and Zlochevsky despite pressure from the US; whereas Lutsenko was a corrupt prosecutor who bowed to that pressure. (All the investigations were concluded favorably to Burisma within months after Lutsenko was appointed Prosecutor General.) In all likelihood, Poroshenko was the one who was actually calling the shots; Shokin just happened to be the one in Joe Biden’s crosshairs.

The Biden Narrative is shown to be wrong in several key aspects. First, Shokin was in fact pursuing six separate charges against Burisma when he was fired, despite Biden’s claims that he wanted him fired for his failure to go after corrupt companies (including Burisma). Second, the claim that Biden was just one of many key figures around the world who wanted Shokin fired is misleading. In fact, the US clearly took the lead in going after him. Finally, the claim that Lutsenko was any less corrupt than Shokin is also a lie.

The upshot of all this is that there’s plenty of circumstantial evidence that Joe Biden, as Vice President, got Shokin fired not because Shokin was corrupt (although he may well have been), but because he wouldn’t stop investigating Burisma.

Which sounds a lot like the claim that there’s plenty of circumstantial evidence that Trump wanted Zelensky to investigate the Bidens not because they were peddling influence (although they probably were), but because he wanted to undermine a political rival.

My take after watching all three parts of the documentary is that we (the US) should steer clear of Ukraine. It’s a cesspool of corruption into which our own politicians are proving only too willing to leap. The country is an albatross looking for a neck; let’s keep it from hanging around ours.

[ Edited: 03 February 2020 09:52 by Antisocialdarwinist]
 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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04 February 2020 08:36
 

Let me ask you straight up, do you support Trump?

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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04 February 2020 10:08
 
GAD - 04 February 2020 08:36 AM

Let me ask you straight up, do you support Trump?

I didn’t vote for him, although I saw him as the lesser of two evils in the last election. I’ve never been to any of his rallies or given his campaign (or any PAC that supports him) any money. I’m not a Republican. I don’t believe he would have asked the Ukrainian president to investigate Biden if Biden hadn’t been a political rival. I agree with some of his policies (though rarely with his approach to implementing them, or with his approach to governing in general), disagree with others. Do you think that makes me enough of a supporter that I can’t see UkraineGate objectively?

If anything, I’m biased against all politicians, which admittedly makes me more likely to believe accusations of their inappropriate or illegal behavior. I try to take that into account when I look at Biden’s conduct vis-a-vis Ukraine and Burisma. I found the documentary pretty convincing; would find it more so if the organization behind it hadn’t been accused of having a pro-Russia bias.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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04 February 2020 10:51
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 04 February 2020 10:08 AM
GAD - 04 February 2020 08:36 AM

Let me ask you straight up, do you support Trump?

I didn’t vote for him, although I saw him as the lesser of two evils in the last election. I’ve never been to any of his rallies or given his campaign (or any PAC that supports him) any money. I’m not a Republican. I don’t believe he would have asked the Ukrainian president to investigate Biden if Biden hadn’t been a political rival. I agree with some of his policies (though rarely with his approach to implementing them, or with his approach to governing in general), disagree with others. Do you think that makes me enough of a supporter that I can’t see UkraineGate objectively?

If anything, I’m biased against all politicians, which admittedly makes me more likely to believe accusations of their inappropriate or illegal behavior. I try to take that into account when I look at Biden’s conduct vis-a-vis Ukraine and Burisma. I found the documentary pretty convincing; would find it more so if the organization behind it hadn’t been accused of having a pro-Russia bias.

Since Trump came on the scene you have made a number of posts (like this thread) that doesn’t directly support him, but certainly indirectly supports him by sowing uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him. What Biden did or did not do in the past is irrelevant to what we know Trump did, and we both know he didn’t do it for us, or to fight corruption, he did it to attack a politic rival. So these posts come off feeling like stealth support posts for Trump meant to sow uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him.

 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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04 February 2020 11:33
 

“all politicians are bad” is a childish sentiment when one party is demonstrably way, way way worse.

 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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04 February 2020 18:42
 
GAD - 04 February 2020 10:51 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 04 February 2020 10:08 AM
GAD - 04 February 2020 08:36 AM

Let me ask you straight up, do you support Trump?

I didn’t vote for him, although I saw him as the lesser of two evils in the last election. I’ve never been to any of his rallies or given his campaign (or any PAC that supports him) any money. I’m not a Republican. I don’t believe he would have asked the Ukrainian president to investigate Biden if Biden hadn’t been a political rival. I agree with some of his policies (though rarely with his approach to implementing them, or with his approach to governing in general), disagree with others. Do you think that makes me enough of a supporter that I can’t see UkraineGate objectively?

If anything, I’m biased against all politicians, which admittedly makes me more likely to believe accusations of their inappropriate or illegal behavior. I try to take that into account when I look at Biden’s conduct vis-a-vis Ukraine and Burisma. I found the documentary pretty convincing; would find it more so if the organization behind it hadn’t been accused of having a pro-Russia bias.

Since Trump came on the scene you have made a number of posts (like this thread) that doesn’t directly support him, but certainly indirectly supports him by sowing uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him. What Biden did or did not do in the past is irrelevant to what we know Trump did, and we both know he didn’t do it for us, or to fight corruption, he did it to attack a politic rival. So these posts come off feeling like stealth support posts for Trump meant to sow uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him.

I’m in a similar boat to ASD.  Didn’t vote for him, but had I voted I would have voted Trump.  There’s enough bias around me that I find myself sticking up for Trump in many instances.  One instance was the Trump tower meeting with the Russian lawyer.  A coworker couldn’t believe me when I said that meeting was a nothingburger, he was shocked at my apparent Trump hypnosis.  I tried to explain why the meeting didn’t make sense as an example of collusion with the Russian government.  Turns out I was vindicated with the Mueller report.  Some of my posts may seem to give Trump a pass, but I feel there is a bias and the opposition rarely gives the situation a fair shake. 
There’s several other instances (Harris has discussed these on his podcast) that people who despise Trump find to be clear indicators of Trumps racism.  Is Harris a closet Trump supporter for calling them out?

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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04 February 2020 20:30
 
DEGENERATEON - 04 February 2020 06:42 PM
GAD - 04 February 2020 10:51 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 04 February 2020 10:08 AM
GAD - 04 February 2020 08:36 AM

Let me ask you straight up, do you support Trump?

I didn’t vote for him, although I saw him as the lesser of two evils in the last election. I’ve never been to any of his rallies or given his campaign (or any PAC that supports him) any money. I’m not a Republican. I don’t believe he would have asked the Ukrainian president to investigate Biden if Biden hadn’t been a political rival. I agree with some of his policies (though rarely with his approach to implementing them, or with his approach to governing in general), disagree with others. Do you think that makes me enough of a supporter that I can’t see UkraineGate objectively?

If anything, I’m biased against all politicians, which admittedly makes me more likely to believe accusations of their inappropriate or illegal behavior. I try to take that into account when I look at Biden’s conduct vis-a-vis Ukraine and Burisma. I found the documentary pretty convincing; would find it more so if the organization behind it hadn’t been accused of having a pro-Russia bias.

Since Trump came on the scene you have made a number of posts (like this thread) that doesn’t directly support him, but certainly indirectly supports him by sowing uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him. What Biden did or did not do in the past is irrelevant to what we know Trump did, and we both know he didn’t do it for us, or to fight corruption, he did it to attack a politic rival. So these posts come off feeling like stealth support posts for Trump meant to sow uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him.

I’m in a similar boat to ASD.  Didn’t vote for him, but had I voted I would have voted Trump.  There’s enough bias around me that I find myself sticking up for Trump in many instances.  One instance was the Trump tower meeting with the Russian lawyer.  A coworker couldn’t believe me when I said that meeting was a nothingburger, he was shocked at my apparent Trump hypnosis.  I tried to explain why the meeting didn’t make sense as an example of collusion with the Russian government.  Turns out I was vindicated with the Mueller report.  Some of my posts may seem to give Trump a pass, but I feel there is a bias and the opposition rarely gives the situation a fair shake. 
There’s several other instances (Harris has discussed these on his podcast) that people who despise Trump find to be clear indicators of Trumps racism.  Is Harris a closet Trump supporter for calling them out?

There are nuts on the left who push and project all kinds of bullshit on to Trump, I don’t support such claims, am I a closet Trump supporter? No. In this case we know what Trump did and why, to makes excuses for Trump here is bullshit, it’s says you don’t care what he does.

On your collusion example, there was a lot of really weird circumstantial shit with Trump and the Russians, was there collusion or attempted collusion or just some dirty politics? I don’t know, I wasn’t there and don’t have enough clear information to know, and neither do you. So it’s seems a bit self-righteous to pick out things you basically guess about and play them off like you know or are saving us from them.

 

 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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04 February 2020 21:18
 

Harris absolutely thinks that Trump is a Racist.
That’s because he is, simply because he can’t think in anything but stereotypes.

 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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04 February 2020 21:18
 
GAD - 04 February 2020 08:30 PM
DEGENERATEON - 04 February 2020 06:42 PM
GAD - 04 February 2020 10:51 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 04 February 2020 10:08 AM
GAD - 04 February 2020 08:36 AM

Let me ask you straight up, do you support Trump?

I didn’t vote for him, although I saw him as the lesser of two evils in the last election. I’ve never been to any of his rallies or given his campaign (or any PAC that supports him) any money. I’m not a Republican. I don’t believe he would have asked the Ukrainian president to investigate Biden if Biden hadn’t been a political rival. I agree with some of his policies (though rarely with his approach to implementing them, or with his approach to governing in general), disagree with others. Do you think that makes me enough of a supporter that I can’t see UkraineGate objectively?

If anything, I’m biased against all politicians, which admittedly makes me more likely to believe accusations of their inappropriate or illegal behavior. I try to take that into account when I look at Biden’s conduct vis-a-vis Ukraine and Burisma. I found the documentary pretty convincing; would find it more so if the organization behind it hadn’t been accused of having a pro-Russia bias.

Since Trump came on the scene you have made a number of posts (like this thread) that doesn’t directly support him, but certainly indirectly supports him by sowing uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him. What Biden did or did not do in the past is irrelevant to what we know Trump did, and we both know he didn’t do it for us, or to fight corruption, he did it to attack a politic rival. So these posts come off feeling like stealth support posts for Trump meant to sow uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him.

I’m in a similar boat to ASD.  Didn’t vote for him, but had I voted I would have voted Trump.  There’s enough bias around me that I find myself sticking up for Trump in many instances.  One instance was the Trump tower meeting with the Russian lawyer.  A coworker couldn’t believe me when I said that meeting was a nothingburger, he was shocked at my apparent Trump hypnosis.  I tried to explain why the meeting didn’t make sense as an example of collusion with the Russian government.  Turns out I was vindicated with the Mueller report.  Some of my posts may seem to give Trump a pass, but I feel there is a bias and the opposition rarely gives the situation a fair shake. 
There’s several other instances (Harris has discussed these on his podcast) that people who despise Trump find to be clear indicators of Trumps racism.  Is Harris a closet Trump supporter for calling them out?

There are nuts on the left who push and project all kinds of bullshit on to Trump, I don’t support such claims, am I a closet Trump supporter? No. In this case we know what Trump did and why, to makes excuses for Trump here is bullshit, it’s says you don’t care what he does.

On your collusion example, there was a lot of really weird circumstantial shit with Trump and the Russians, was there collusion or attempted collusion or just some dirty politics? I don’t know, I wasn’t there and don’t have enough clear information to know, and neither do you. So it’s seems a bit self-righteous to pick out things you basically guess about and play them off like you know or are saving us from them.

 

On the collusion example - in my view it was an educated guess and made more sense then my coworkers view that it was the end all be all smoking gun.  Of course I couldn’t be sure, but he definitely was and thought I had some devotion to Trump instead of actually listening to my argument.  My vindication wasn’t that I guessed correctly, it was watching him eat crow on his insistence that I was creating stories in defense of Trump.
Should Trump be removed from office for UkraineGate? 

 

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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04 February 2020 21:29
 
Twissel - 04 February 2020 09:18 PM

Harris absolutely thinks that Trump is a Racist.
That’s because he is, simply because he can’t think in anything but stereotypes.

Correct- Harris does think he’s a racist of a sort, but not for many of the reasons several have cited as bulletproof evidence that he is.  Harris has mentioned that he knows with certainty that the “apprentice tapes” exist, and that seems to be the best evidence he’s put forth on the subject.

 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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04 February 2020 21:32
 

it is an established FACT that people on Trump’s team, people picked by Trump (at the very least Flynn and Manafort) were working for foreign powers.
And Trump never bothered to do the vetting or more accurately, didn’t care.
It is also a fact that Guiliani, and the people working with him in the Ukraine Scheme were being paid by foreign powers.

There is NOTHING circumstantial about this.

Why does Trump, time and again, get a total pass on this basic kind of error in judgment and lack of sense of national security concerns?
No one else would.

Anyone making excuses for Trump is using double standards. Everyone.

[ Edited: 04 February 2020 22:05 by Twissel]
 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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04 February 2020 22:51
 

concerning his racism:

he just announced that he would give Rush Limbaugh the Medal of Freedom.
Need more evidence?

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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05 February 2020 00:31
 
DEGENERATEON - 04 February 2020 09:18 PM

Should Trump be removed from office for UkraineGate?

I think so. But I also think he is a despicable piece of shit human being and a despicable piece of shit president and should be removed just for that.

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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05 February 2020 09:52
 
GAD - 04 February 2020 10:51 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 04 February 2020 10:08 AM
GAD - 04 February 2020 08:36 AM

Let me ask you straight up, do you support Trump?

I didn’t vote for him, although I saw him as the lesser of two evils in the last election. I’ve never been to any of his rallies or given his campaign (or any PAC that supports him) any money. I’m not a Republican. I don’t believe he would have asked the Ukrainian president to investigate Biden if Biden hadn’t been a political rival. I agree with some of his policies (though rarely with his approach to implementing them, or with his approach to governing in general), disagree with others. Do you think that makes me enough of a supporter that I can’t see UkraineGate objectively?

If anything, I’m biased against all politicians, which admittedly makes me more likely to believe accusations of their inappropriate or illegal behavior. I try to take that into account when I look at Biden’s conduct vis-a-vis Ukraine and Burisma. I found the documentary pretty convincing; would find it more so if the organization behind it hadn’t been accused of having a pro-Russia bias.

Since Trump came on the scene you have made a number of posts (like this thread) that doesn’t directly support him, but certainly indirectly supports him by sowing uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him. What Biden did or did not do in the past is irrelevant to what we know Trump did, and we both know he didn’t do it for us, or to fight corruption, he did it to attack a politic rival. So these posts come off feeling like stealth support posts for Trump meant to sow uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him.

Isn’t it a false dichotomy to claim that you can’t criticize Trump’s rivals without supporting Trump? A pox on both your houses.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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05 February 2020 17:45
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 05 February 2020 09:52 AM
GAD - 04 February 2020 10:51 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 04 February 2020 10:08 AM
GAD - 04 February 2020 08:36 AM

Let me ask you straight up, do you support Trump?

I didn’t vote for him, although I saw him as the lesser of two evils in the last election. I’ve never been to any of his rallies or given his campaign (or any PAC that supports him) any money. I’m not a Republican. I don’t believe he would have asked the Ukrainian president to investigate Biden if Biden hadn’t been a political rival. I agree with some of his policies (though rarely with his approach to implementing them, or with his approach to governing in general), disagree with others. Do you think that makes me enough of a supporter that I can’t see UkraineGate objectively?

If anything, I’m biased against all politicians, which admittedly makes me more likely to believe accusations of their inappropriate or illegal behavior. I try to take that into account when I look at Biden’s conduct vis-a-vis Ukraine and Burisma. I found the documentary pretty convincing; would find it more so if the organization behind it hadn’t been accused of having a pro-Russia bias.

Since Trump came on the scene you have made a number of posts (like this thread) that doesn’t directly support him, but certainly indirectly supports him by sowing uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him. What Biden did or did not do in the past is irrelevant to what we know Trump did, and we both know he didn’t do it for us, or to fight corruption, he did it to attack a politic rival. So these posts come off feeling like stealth support posts for Trump meant to sow uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him.

Isn’t it a false dichotomy to claim that you can’t criticize Trump’s rivals without supporting Trump? A pox on both your houses.

Not if the reason you are doing it is to support Trump.

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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06 February 2020 13:39
 
GAD - 05 February 2020 05:45 PM
Antisocialdarwinist - 05 February 2020 09:52 AM
GAD - 04 February 2020 10:51 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 04 February 2020 10:08 AM
GAD - 04 February 2020 08:36 AM

Let me ask you straight up, do you support Trump?

I didn’t vote for him, although I saw him as the lesser of two evils in the last election. I’ve never been to any of his rallies or given his campaign (or any PAC that supports him) any money. I’m not a Republican. I don’t believe he would have asked the Ukrainian president to investigate Biden if Biden hadn’t been a political rival. I agree with some of his policies (though rarely with his approach to implementing them, or with his approach to governing in general), disagree with others. Do you think that makes me enough of a supporter that I can’t see UkraineGate objectively?

If anything, I’m biased against all politicians, which admittedly makes me more likely to believe accusations of their inappropriate or illegal behavior. I try to take that into account when I look at Biden’s conduct vis-a-vis Ukraine and Burisma. I found the documentary pretty convincing; would find it more so if the organization behind it hadn’t been accused of having a pro-Russia bias.

Since Trump came on the scene you have made a number of posts (like this thread) that doesn’t directly support him, but certainly indirectly supports him by sowing uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him. What Biden did or did not do in the past is irrelevant to what we know Trump did, and we both know he didn’t do it for us, or to fight corruption, he did it to attack a politic rival. So these posts come off feeling like stealth support posts for Trump meant to sow uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him.

Isn’t it a false dichotomy to claim that you can’t criticize Trump’s rivals without supporting Trump? A pox on both your houses.

Not if the reason you are doing it is to support Trump.

So, you’re a mind reader: you can read Trump’s mind and know that he only asked Zelesky to investigate Biden in order to undermine a political rival; you can read Biden’s mind and know that he only got the Ukrainian prosecutor fired to fight corruption; and you can read my mind and know I’m a secret Trump supporter. Now read my mind again and tell me what I think of your mind-reading ability.

 
 
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