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UkraineGate—Inconvenient Facts

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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06 February 2020 17:34
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 06 February 2020 01:39 PM
GAD - 05 February 2020 05:45 PM
Antisocialdarwinist - 05 February 2020 09:52 AM
GAD - 04 February 2020 10:51 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 04 February 2020 10:08 AM
GAD - 04 February 2020 08:36 AM

Let me ask you straight up, do you support Trump?

I didn’t vote for him, although I saw him as the lesser of two evils in the last election. I’ve never been to any of his rallies or given his campaign (or any PAC that supports him) any money. I’m not a Republican. I don’t believe he would have asked the Ukrainian president to investigate Biden if Biden hadn’t been a political rival. I agree with some of his policies (though rarely with his approach to implementing them, or with his approach to governing in general), disagree with others. Do you think that makes me enough of a supporter that I can’t see UkraineGate objectively?

If anything, I’m biased against all politicians, which admittedly makes me more likely to believe accusations of their inappropriate or illegal behavior. I try to take that into account when I look at Biden’s conduct vis-a-vis Ukraine and Burisma. I found the documentary pretty convincing; would find it more so if the organization behind it hadn’t been accused of having a pro-Russia bias.

Since Trump came on the scene you have made a number of posts (like this thread) that doesn’t directly support him, but certainly indirectly supports him by sowing uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him. What Biden did or did not do in the past is irrelevant to what we know Trump did, and we both know he didn’t do it for us, or to fight corruption, he did it to attack a politic rival. So these posts come off feeling like stealth support posts for Trump meant to sow uncertainty and doubt about his actions and claims against him.

Isn’t it a false dichotomy to claim that you can’t criticize Trump’s rivals without supporting Trump? A pox on both your houses.

Not if the reason you are doing it is to support Trump.

So, you’re a mind reader: you can read Trump’s mind and know that he only asked Zelesky to investigate Biden in order to undermine a political rival; you can read Biden’s mind and know that he only got the Ukrainian prosecutor fired to fight corruption; and you can read my mind and know I’m a secret Trump supporter. Now read my mind again and tell me what I think of your mind-reading ability.

I don’t need to be a mind reader, we know what Trump did and why, and we know that any claim of what Biden did is pure conspiracy at this point, and we know that whatever Biden did or didn’t do is no excuse for what Trump did. It’s your time to waste, if you want to spend hours of your life watching a pro Russian conspiracy documentary about Biden which is only relevant with respect to helping Trump, that is your prerogative. But when you try and sell it as just wanting to make sure it’s fair and the world knows both sides, I call that bullshit, that’s not mind reading, that’s my opinion and it’s every bit as valid as your UkraineGate opinion. Just keeping it fair and making sure the world knows both sides here wink 

 

 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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06 February 2020 21:07
 

Hey, ASD - if Trump thought asking about his State-of-mind would be exculpatory, he would have testified like Clinton did, and allowed others to do so.
Why are you so hell-bent on making excuses for him?

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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07 February 2020 20:11
 
Twissel - 06 February 2020 09:07 PM

Hey, ASD - if Trump thought asking about his State-of-mind would be exculpatory, he would have testified like Clinton did, and allowed others to do so.
Why are you so hell-bent on making excuses for him?

How am I making excuses for Trump? I’m pointing out a double standard. There’s exactly as much evidence for Trump’s intentions as there is for Biden’s. If you give Trump the benefit of the doubt but not Biden (as your counterparts on the right are doing), that’s a double standard. And if you give Biden the benefit of the doubt but not Trump, that’s a double standard. I give neither the benefit of any doubt. Nor should you.

The point being that both parties are equally self-serving and hypocritical. You might argue that at any given point in time, one party is behaving worse than the other (the Republicans are probably behaving worse at this particular moment), but in the long run they’re equally bad. Don’t let your agreement with one party or the other on certain issues blind you to that. A pox on both their houses!

 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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08 February 2020 04:28
 

ASD, Fox has spent the entire Obama presidency attributing horrible motives to mundane acts by Obama.
That was a double standard.

Attributing horrible motives to horrible acts is what the default position should be - unless you want to claim that Trump is schizophrenic.
Instead of talking Trump at face value, you use special pleading.

You are being intellectually lazy to go with “both sides are bad” - yes, jaywalking and murder are both crimes, but can we agree that one is much worse than the other?

In any political system, the default attitude MUST always be to be more critical of those in power than of those in opposition: even if they were equally bad, only one side can act on their nastiness.

Sorry, but there is no such thing as “fair and balanced”: it is a phrase invented to sell lies.

[ Edited: 08 February 2020 04:33 by Twissel]
 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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08 February 2020 09:07
 
Twissel - 08 February 2020 04:28 AM

ASD, Fox has spent the entire Obama presidency attributing horrible motives to mundane acts by Obama.
That was a double standard.

Attributing horrible motives to horrible acts is what the default position should be - unless you want to claim that Trump is schizophrenic.
Instead of talking Trump at face value, you use special pleading.

You are being intellectually lazy to go with “both sides are bad” - yes, jaywalking and murder are both crimes, but can we agree that one is much worse than the other?

In any political system, the default attitude MUST always be to be more critical of those in power than of those in opposition: even if they were equally bad, only one side can act on their nastiness.

Sorry, but there is no such thing as “fair and balanced”: it is a phrase invented to sell lies.

You don’t need to convince me that FOX News isn’t fair and balanced. Had the OP documentary been produced by FOX, I wouldn’t have bothered with it. Nor would I have bothered with one produced by MSNBC.

Tell me: which is “jaywalking” and which is “murder?” Pressuring a foreign leader to investigate a corrupt political rival for your own political gain? Pressuring a foreign leader to stop investigating a corrupt foreign oligarch because your son is on the corrupt foreign oligarch’s payroll? I don’t see a “murder/jaywalking” difference there.

Consider the definition of politics offered by satirist Ambrose Bierce: “A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage.”

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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08 February 2020 09:41
 

Is there any doubt in anyone’s mind (here on the forum), that trump is a pathological liar?

To me, that’s reason enough to oust him.

 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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08 February 2020 10:05
 

It is attempted murder of your democracy to enlist foreign powers to discredit your opponents.

Trump attacked THE US, not Ukraine, by blackmailing Zelensky for making up lies about an investigation into the Bidens.

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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08 February 2020 10:06
 
icehorse - 08 February 2020 09:41 AM

Is there any doubt in anyone’s mind (here on the forum), that trump is a pathological liar?

To me, that’s reason enough to oust him.

Is it also reason enough to give his corrupt political rivals a pass?

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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08 February 2020 10:08
 
Twissel - 08 February 2020 10:05 AM

It is attempted murder of your democracy to enlist foreign powers to discredit your opponents.

That would be more persuasive if “your opponents” weren’t enlisting those same foreign powers for their own corrupt ends.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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08 February 2020 10:44
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 08 February 2020 10:06 AM
icehorse - 08 February 2020 09:41 AM

Is there any doubt in anyone’s mind (here on the forum), that trump is a pathological liar?

To me, that’s reason enough to oust him.

Is it also reason enough to give his corrupt political rivals a pass?

you talkin’ to me?

(of course not, doh!)

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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23 February 2020 12:58
 

Part Four is up: Shokin Strikes Back.

An in-depth interview with Viktor Shokin, the Ukrainian prosecutor who was fired after then-Vice President Biden threatened to withhold a billion dollars in loan guarantees to Ukraine. Evidence is presented that refutes Biden’s claim that many European leaders also wanted Shokin fired. Biden’s claim that the investigation into Burisma was “dormant” is also shown to be a lie. In fact, a good portion of Mykola Zlochevsky’s (founder of Burisma) assets had been seized just days before Biden’s ultimatum. The prosecutor who replaced Shokin ended the investigation within months of being appointed.

Shokin’s complaint against Biden, filed last month with the interim director of Ukraine’s National Bureau of Investigation.

 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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23 February 2020 13:15
 

He is not unbiased, is he?

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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24 February 2020 08:17
 

Forty minutes of Shokin talking at us hardly qualifies as evidence.  There are elements of truth to the story in that corruption runs rampant and there was nepotism on Hunter Biden’s part but all your links show is a bunch of dots with no connections.  It’s interesting you’re so suspicious of biased American media but not of its non American counterparts.  And, you’ve gotta figure, the European Union and IMF aren’t gonna stick their necks out for the Vice President of the United States.  This whole endeavour mostly amounts to hearsay and propaganda.

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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24 February 2020 08:46
 
LadyJane - 24 February 2020 08:17 AM

Forty minutes of Shokin talking at us hardly qualifies as evidence.  There are elements of truth to the story in that corruption runs rampant and there was nepotism on Hunter Biden’s part but all your links show is a bunch of dots with no connections.  It’s interesting you’re so suspicious of biased American media but not of its non American counterparts.  And, you’ve gotta figure, the European Union and IMF aren’t gonna stick their necks out for the Vice President of the United States.  This whole endeavour mostly amounts to hearsay and propaganda.

Shokin’s obviously biased side of the story is just that: one side of the story. As is Biden’s. Take Shokin with a grain of salt; what I found convincing was:

1. The old articles that show multiple different European leaders expressing support of Shokin and his corruption investigations. This contradicts Biden’s claim that it wasn’t just him that wanted to get rid of Shokin, it was a widespread sentiment among European leaders as well. This claim of Biden’s, incidentally, rang true to me back when he first started making it. But it doesn’t appear to hold up under closer scrutiny. Which European leaders, specifically, wanted Shokin removed? That’s the question that, as far as I know, hasn’t been asked. We know that it was common for corrupt Ukrainian oligarchs to put influential foreigners on their boards as a defense against corruption investigations. Hunter Biden was just one example. Which of those European leaders who (allegedly) wanted Shokin removed had ties to members of corrupt Ukrainian company boards?

2. The evidence that shows the investigation into Burisma wasn’t “dormant.” Biden claimed, in order to show that he would have had no ulterior motive for wanting Shokin removed, that Burisma wasn’t being investigated when he threatened to withhold a billion dollars in load guarantees. But this claim doesn’t hold up to scrutiny either.

None of this excuses Trump’s behavior, of course. But it shows that Biden and the Democrats who are standing by him are just as self-serving and hypocritical as Trump and the Republicans. A pox (or maybe a coronavirus) on both your houses!

 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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24 February 2020 10:10
 

Now find a link from a UK or EU source.

 
 
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