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Where have all the bigots gone?

 
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07 June 2020 09:31
 

Being an openly white bigot is not socially acceptable, yet white bigots abound.  Why?  Where do they learn their bigotry?  The public bigot narrative and lexicon has changed to accommodate plausible deniability so that “nigger” is replaced with “thug,” “rapper,” “welfare queen,” “crack whore,” or “drug dealer.”    On a more open level, and when speaking about race, “they/them” is the code word since it is a third person pronoun implying “they” are not part of the “we.”  As a white man, I am privy to subtle bigoted conversations until the bigot learns I am not sympathetic, then suddenly I am out of the social sphere and any further conversations are reduced to small talk, which is fine by me since I don’t want to hear white people complain about minorities defending their constitutional rights or living a peaceful life which the bigot disapproves, which usually boils down to Living While Being Black/Latino/Asian/homosexual/woman//not-Christian/mentally ill/poor.

The language of bigotry lives in shadows, whispers, and code, and I am happy to expose it

 
LadyJane
 
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10 June 2020 18:22
 

I’ve never known crickets to be prejudiced.  You might’ve missed a few opportunities round here, sir.  That isn’t yer fault.  But be careful who you vouch for as it may come back to bite you in the arse.  This is a touchy topic.  And not the time for subtleties.  Just ask any peace frog.

Many threads have started.  Zero conversations had.  Mainly just a lot of noise where the loudest voices silence the rest, year after year, with the sort of defensive bluster we’ve all come to expect from the ones with all the knapsacks.  You know…the invisible ones that carry all those weightless provisions.  The ones that fortunes favour.  The ones you fellas take for granted.  The ones that offer the luxury of the benefit of doubt.  The ones that make it so you don’t have to lift a finger.  The ones that allow you to say you’re not a racist and think that it’s enough.  The ones that this rebellion makes impossible to deny. 

It’s hard to imagine why the concept of equal rights for everyone causes such a stir.  I don’t understand the controversy.  This is an easy one.  But it requires all hands on deck.  Coz we’re not all yet on an even keel.  The consensus is as clear as the need to add yer voice to the chorus of anti-racism or pose as just another threat.  The only thing worse than couching what you say is the unfettered anger expressed by those who claim the problem’s solved.  The silence of complacency is deathly.  And ushers the outspoken critics of fascism into the shadows again and again.  The world was at a standstill looking at the same thing at the same time.  We all watched a murder and it really pissed us off.  Anyone who isn’t pissed off about it is lacking an empathy chip.  This is why it matters who we bolster and endorse.   

I took one last shot at having this conversation in January.  The response was intense.  It veered off topic immediately and I think I’ve figured out some of the reasons why.  The past few years have been brutally divisive and particularly devastating politically for Americans.  Which has only added to the regular challenges of every day life.  So when a notoriously ornery veteran member was getting divorced it was easy to give a little leeway.  That is, easy, until it wasn’t.  I don’t know fer sure if his wife cheated or whether she cheated with a black man but that poster, who’d previously had a pretty good sense of humour, became extremely negative towards black people.  And downright hateful towards women.  I never anticipated being in a position to defend the already established verdict of the Central Park Five case.  It was all very unfortunate to witness.  Oh, aye, he was down on blacks alright.  Enough to put his better half to shame. 

I’m for hearing everybody out…but only to a point.  And once a person has been heard a decision must be made.  To allow for other voices or settle for reiterations of the ones we’ve already heard.  Unfortunately, at that stage, it was too fucking little too fucking late.  The cancer had spread.  And it opened the floodgates and every sucky boy with a grievance was given carte blanche to lash out.  I’m not gonna lie to ya, sir, no one lashes out like a man who’s been emasculated.  Like a wild animal wounded insecure.  An impotent beast.  Needy for approval and longing for acceptance.  Anything shy of that is seen only as betrayal. 

Some blokes wanna see themself as a tough guy.  Usually coz they’re not.  A reputation for being a strong man lasts only as long as you are able to keep up the facade that perpetuates that perception.  And the longer you ride your own coat tail the greater chance of slipping up and blowing your ride.  Coz it wears thin after awhile and tends to get repetitive.  Forcing you to rely on the ringing endorsements of others, living vicariously through the facade, in order to continue perpetuating the myth of that reputation.  Like a cult member fawning over its leader.  Getting into their good graces before scampering off so as not to risk becoming a casualty in the gaze of that perception.  That’s what cowards do.  Leaving in their wake those of us still in the line of fire.

Trolls come here to feel special and they always get fed.  From attention seeking religious freaks to those composing a thesis of ideas they cannot sell.  Very few people care about ze gods or why one loses their composure.  Others just get off on disrupting conversations.  It seems a monumental task to simply not be a dick.  They go cherry picking what they like while dismissing what they don’t and all the opinions they ignore funnel into that handy knapsack while narrowing the view into a myopic cult of one.  It never feels too heavy despite the load inside coz the broken backs will carry what ensures yer berths are wide. 

It’s hard to muster a response sometimes but sometimes it’s harder to not.  Like when yer buddy from New Orleans said he wanted to bring the word faggot back.  Yeah.  Real charmer, that guy.  There were crickets on that one too.  I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn’t read it.  Coz I haven’t seen anyone defend gay rights as much as you.  But I’m done making excuses for everybody else. 

Look alive man.  Coz the revolution’s here.  Boomshakalaka!

 
 
MrRon
 
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11 June 2020 07:02
 
Skipshot - 07 June 2020 09:31 AM

Being an openly white bigot is not socially acceptable, yet white bigots abound.  Why?  Where do they learn their bigotry?  The public bigot narrative and lexicon has changed to accommodate plausible deniability so that “nigger” is replaced with “thug,” “rapper,” “welfare queen,” “crack whore,” or “drug dealer.”    On a more open level, and when speaking about race, “they/them” is the code word since it is a third person pronoun implying “they” are not part of the “we.”  As a white man, I am privy to subtle bigoted conversations until the bigot learns I am not sympathetic, then suddenly I am out of the social sphere and any further conversations are reduced to small talk, which is fine by me since I don’t want to hear white people complain about minorities defending their constitutional rights or living a peaceful life which the bigot disapproves, which usually boils down to Living While Being Black/Latino/Asian/homosexual/woman//not-Christian/mentally ill/poor.

The language of bigotry lives in shadows, whispers, and code, and I am happy to expose it

As someone who is, for the most part, an “in the closet” left winger to my hard core right wing Fox News family, I too have been in a position to witness this behavior. Most of the time, the language is subtle indeed. But on occasion, it’s not so subtle. “They/them” is used a LOT. Another sign is when someone starts with “I’m not a racist, but...”. What follows is almost always certainly racist. Anyway, family dynamics can be complicated, and I have managed (although with increasingly greater difficulty) to remain somewhat “neutral” when it comes to politics. I have no doubt that I would not have been privy to some of the things I have heard had it not been for my perceived neutrality. But over the past few years, it’s gotten pretty ugly.

 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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11 June 2020 07:38
 

It is a nightmare of a person who, with remorseless sociopathy, believes it is okay to steal, kill, rape, and plunder. But far more of humanity’s worst behaviors are due to a different kind of person, namely most of the rest of us, who will say that of course it is wrong to do X . . . but here is why these special circumstances make me an exception right now.

Sapolsky, Robert M.. Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst (p. 619).

To answer your question, I’ve seen no point that captures better the movement we are seeing now than this observation by Sapolsky.  The one that is sweeping the country.  Its leaders claim the mantle of righteousness fighting for equality and justice for all, against the evil of racism; against the oppressors.  Their methods, however, tell a different story.  These methods reveal they are the threat Sapolsky warns us about.  They are the problem—a problem even more threatening than the reality beneath the delusional one they are fighting against.  Against their stated aims—and this is hardly the first time in history—these social justice warriors represent a threat to a society striving to improve itself, all while masquerading under the banner of a noble cause.

Take, for instance, the racial denigration. “You must be white.”  “The things white people will believe about non-white people.”  “A lot of white boys shopping around papers that nobody wants to buy.”  “White privilege”—you are guilty of oppressing me because you are white.  “White supremacy”—your very whiteness is an assertion of power over me.  “HOLD!OTHER!WHITE!PEOPLE!ACCOUNTABLE!”—you white people are all guilty of threatening my life; your “silence is violence.”  One gets tired of citing examples.  Put “black” in any of these remarks and all hell breaks loose—and rightly so.  We see examples of this every day.  Yet, these same people exempt themselves from the immorality of racial denigration—so long as the target is white.  It’s as though “racism is wrong” unless I turn it on the oppressor because they are all oppressors by race. 

When this self-justifying logic is an “I,” one has a hypocrite.  When the “I” becomes we, the hypocrisy becomes a movement.

Or take the violence.  We all know destroying the livelihoods of innocent people is wrong.  Much less attacking them directly.  Yet during the protests “people” are finally getting what’s coming to them; their denial of this come-uppance “lasts as long as it takes to feel the tickle of the flame in time to escape the inferno of reality as they burnthemotherfuckerdown.”  Apparently it’s omelets and eggs—if you’re white.  For the cause, white people are expendable, for their whiteness makes them all complicit and guilty.  It takes yer’ breath away.  Fighting for the cause of racial equality is, to some, that “special circumstance” that justifies the victimization of innocent people.  When an “I” does this, he is a violent hypocrite.  When a “we” does it, it becomes a movement of violent hypocrisy.

Even when the violence is cultural…

So, where have the bigots gone?  They are right in front of you.  They are sweeping across the country in the name of racial justice, and they are burning down good people in their path—for anyone who opposes them, anyone who even questions them or fails to tow the line, is bad.  They get “cancelled.”

We should be done making excuses for these people.  Much less be done listening to them make excuses for themselves.  For plenty of good people are doing the work they claim to be doing, and doing it better.  The fight for racial equality has been going on for decades before the arrival of these self-appointed racial warriors, and it’s being won by people of far better character..

So, if this is “the revolution,” we need check it before it spreads and leave these so-called “activists” with nothing better to do but compose self-congratulatory homilies on internet forums or write bogus scholarship in academic septic tanks.  While they do the rest of us can stand on principle and make sure everyone benefits from the same. 

In other words strip the mantle of righteousness from those who claim it and do the right thing by those who need it.

Coz’ this is far preferable to the damage this “revolution” will wreck in decent society if left to its own devices.

 

[ Edited: 11 June 2020 07:50 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
Jefe
 
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11 June 2020 09:52
 

So much misrepresentation and misunderstanding, and no bridge to true communication.

 
 
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11 June 2020 10:47
 

Anal, in light of your post, I would like to amend my first post to include in the language of bigotry “playing the victim” and “victim blaming.”

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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12 June 2020 15:26
 
Jefe - 11 June 2020 09:52 AM

So much misrepresentation and misunderstanding, and no bridge to true communication.

This struck a chord with me because I was thinking of what was making conversations about this topic so difficult.  To me it seems that there is a massive barrier that needs to be removed.  The idea that black men are facing a genocide, that they are being hunted, or that bodies are dropping like flies and nobody is doing anything.  That they are afraid if their children are going to make it home from school without being shot by a racist white cop.  That they themselves should be afraid to go about their life because white cops are out to kill them.

It is completely untrue.  It is insanity.  Yet I hear it over and over and over.  A list of athletes, celebrities, cnn show hosts, political figures, etc etc etc saying that black men are being hunted and killed every day.
Can we just concede that point?  Can we move past the first obvious falsehood?

 
icehorse
 
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12 June 2020 16:17
 

I think that there are extremists at every end of every spectrum and what they often have in common is the desire to “burn it all down”. So there is a “burn it all down” aspect to the last couple of weeks that I find very concerning. And then of course, since I’m a white guy who “owns” a house, I’m asked to have nothing to say about it. It’s extreme identity politics.

But am I pretty sure that many of the folks who are - wittingly or not - calling to “burn it all down”, would be extremely unhappy in a Mad Max world.

So LJ, for most of us - I would hazard a guess that for ALL of us on RF - we’re not against equal rights, in fact I’m sure the opposite is true. But I also know that “burn it all down” would suck for you as much or more so than it would suck for me.

 
 
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13 June 2020 08:19
 
DEGENERATEON - 12 June 2020 03:26 PM
Jefe - 11 June 2020 09:52 AM

So much misrepresentation and misunderstanding, and no bridge to true communication.

This struck a chord with me because I was thinking of what was making conversations about this topic so difficult.  To me it seems that there is a massive barrier that needs to be removed.  The idea that black men are facing a genocide, that they are being hunted, or that bodies are dropping like flies and nobody is doing anything.  That they are afraid if their children are going to make it home from school without being shot by a racist white cop.  That they themselves should be afraid to go about their life because white cops are out to kill them.

It is completely untrue.  It is insanity.  Yet I hear it over and over and over.  A list of athletes, celebrities, cnn show hosts, political figures, etc etc etc saying that black men are being hunted and killed every day.
Can we just concede that point?  Can we move past the first obvious falsehood?

What you and I say here on this forum doesn’t really affect the lives of those experiencing the violence and over-reach.
You can say that black people are not getting hunted by police, but then we see news stories and hear accounts of black people being killed by police, or physically harmed by police over-reach.  And there’s the rub.  In some places, it happens. In some cases, over-use of force and physical mismanagement happens.  Your statement implies that there is no disparity.  TAP has pages and pages of posts attempting to interpret statistics along the same lines.  But there are places (Louisiana comes to mind) in the states where racism and unequal treatment may mean exactly that, that black people have it worse, experience more harm at the hands of their government and their police.  And they see it and feel it.

So if we say something that invalidates or minimize those peoples’ lived lives - or lives lost ,are we really speaking truth?

[ Edited: 13 June 2020 08:22 by Jefe]
 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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13 June 2020 09:37
 
Jefe - 13 June 2020 08:19 AM
DEGENERATEON - 12 June 2020 03:26 PM
Jefe - 11 June 2020 09:52 AM

So much misrepresentation and misunderstanding, and no bridge to true communication.

This struck a chord with me because I was thinking of what was making conversations about this topic so difficult.  To me it seems that there is a massive barrier that needs to be removed.  The idea that black men are facing a genocide, that they are being hunted, or that bodies are dropping like flies and nobody is doing anything.  That they are afraid if their children are going to make it home from school without being shot by a racist white cop.  That they themselves should be afraid to go about their life because white cops are out to kill them.

It is completely untrue.  It is insanity.  Yet I hear it over and over and over.  A list of athletes, celebrities, cnn show hosts, political figures, etc etc etc saying that black men are being hunted and killed every day.
Can we just concede that point?  Can we move past the first obvious falsehood?

What you and I say here on this forum doesn’t really affect the lives of those experiencing the violence and over-reach.
You can say that black people are not getting hunted by police, but then we see news stories and hear accounts of black people being killed by police, or physically harmed by police over-reach.  And there’s the rub.  In some places, it happens. In some cases, over-use of force and physical mismanagement happens.  Your statement implies that there is no disparity.  TAP has pages and pages of posts attempting to interpret statistics along the same lines.  But there are places (Louisiana comes to mind) in the states where racism and unequal treatment may mean exactly that, that black people have it worse, experience more harm at the hands of their government and their police.  And they see it and feel it.

So if we say something that invalidates or minimize those peoples’ lived lives - or lives lost ,are we really speaking truth?

When I say that black people are not being hunted by police, I’m not suggesting that there are zero instances of police over-use of force.  The point is that the killing of black men at the hands of racist white police is not a national epidemic. 
“that black people have it worse”
This could be true (and likely is true in many respects).  But looking at the actual numbers - the facts as well as we know them - it is nearly impossible to create a sound argument that police are targeting black men for death and face no repercussions.  This is what I’m talking about.  This narrative needs to be exposed and destroyed.  This is what I’m focused on.  To call this narrative a lie is tame.  And this lie is the core of the protests/riots and media coverage.
With this as the centerpiece of an argument, it’s difficult to go anywhere.

 
icehorse
 
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13 June 2020 09:48
 

DEGEN, agreed.

Now back to being a one trick pony, this video is 8 years old, and wealth inequality has only gotten worse in the last 8 years. Income and wealth inequality MUST, MUST, MUST be a huge part of any meaningful discussion on this topic:

wealth inequality

 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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13 June 2020 09:59
 
icehorse - 13 June 2020 09:48 AM

DEGEN, agreed.

Now back to being a one trick pony, this video is 8 years old, and wealth inequality has only gotten worse in the last 8 years. Income and wealth inequality MUST, MUST, MUST be a huge part of any meaningful discussion on this topic:

wealth inequality

Have you listened to Sams latest podcast?  He addresses this to some extent.  And I think it is obvious that this is a major issue.

 
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13 June 2020 10:26
 

You do have a point, Degen, that since the black community is making the claim that they are treated unfairly by the police, then evidence must be presented to support the claim.  Since everyone now has a video camera to record police encounters, and most certainly the horrible encounters are making the news, the claim is being supported. 

The question to you is, how much evidence do you need?

A black person will say that every recorded bad instance with a cop represents 100 which are unrecorded (I made up the numbers), but, on the other hand, the plausible deniability by closet racists will dismiss the evidence as an exception and declare blacks over-reacting.  So what can be done to come closer to the truth?  I have not given it much thought, but I have a feeling our black brothers and sisters are closer to it than our white brothers and sisters.

Racism is an ugly and shameful thing, and we can see the ugliness in old, and not so old, photos when codified racism was the law, and it is understandable that white people would want to distance themselves from those times and claim racism is over because the racist laws were removed and we elected our first “black” president (even though he is half white, was raised by white grandparents, and went to elite white schools).  But, this is the point of the OP, racism isn’t over because our black brothers and sisters are still making the claims, and racists have only changed their vocabulary.  For example, the Confederate flag was resurrected during the Civil Rights protests to openly defend segregation laws, but the flag remains to this day long after the laws were removed, and the terms used to justify the flag are now “heritage,” as though that means something entirely different than “screw the niggers!”

Black people are now forcing white people to have a reckoning with themselves, and white people don’t like it.

 
icehorse
 
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13 June 2020 10:32
 

skip:

Black people are now forcing white people to have a reckoning with themselves, and white people don’t like it.

Police brutality is a small problem
Racism is a significant problem
Wealth and income inequality are HUGE problems.

I know it’s not PC to say it, but these protestors are doing it wrong. Tackling police brutality is a “rearranging deck chairs on the titanic” activity in 2020.

 
 
Jefe
 
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13 June 2020 10:51
 

...it is nearly impossible to create a sound argument that police are targeting black men for death and face no repercussions.  This is what I’m talking about.

The specific language you use matters.

Hunted? Perhaps not. 

Profiled?  Quite likely, given accounts of profile altering actions taken intentionally to change potential police response. (Teddy-bears and child-seats…)

No repercussions?  Perhaps not.
Light repercussions?  Quite likely given intra-departmental solidarity and mutual silence as protection. (Administrative leave is a familiar term.)

It has taken protesting and public scrutiny to increase repercussions for police involved in some recent incidents to be treated with discipline matching their over-reach.  Some over-reach is still not being treated with the same seriousness.

And video accounts keep popping up.  More and more during these protests as some police are responding with even more force and over-reach.

Change is hard, and sometimes scary.  But some change may indeed be required before everyone can see equity in police outcomes.

 
 
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13 June 2020 10:53
 
icehorse - 13 June 2020 10:32 AM

skip:

Black people are now forcing white people to have a reckoning with themselves, and white people don’t like it.

Police brutality is a small problem
Racism is a significant problem
Wealth and income inequality are HUGE problems.

I know it’s not PC to say it, but these protestors are doing it wrong. Tackling police brutality is a “rearranging deck chairs on the titanic” activity in 2020.

Yeah, we know.  But let’s fix the easiest one first.  It also happens to be the most dangerous one, too.

 
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