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Mike Pence Refuses To Say “Black Lives Matter”

 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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28 June 2020 07:51
 
pluka - 28 June 2020 07:20 AM
weird buffalo - 28 June 2020 06:38 AM

The argument that we shouldn’t care about these lives because they are only a few is an argument that those lives don’t matter.

Nonsense, what a ridiculous strawman. No one says we shouldn’t care. But is it a crisis? No. Does it justify massive protests and riots? Obviously not. Imagine if this were done for all deaths, what would the world look like?

Your argument is that BLM and protesters are blowing this out of proportion.  You are telling me that I should not care about these lives as much as BLM and the protesters are asking me to.

You are telling me to care less about them.

This isn’t a strawman, this is reaching the conclusion of your argument.

Let’s assume for a moment that in the future, someone will be killed by the police.  Do you think it is worth engaging in reforms to save their life?  Or, does their life not have enough value to be worth saving?

[ Edited: 28 June 2020 07:54 by weird buffalo]
 
pluka
 
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pluka
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28 June 2020 07:55
 
weird buffalo - 28 June 2020 07:51 AM
pluka - 28 June 2020 07:20 AM
weird buffalo - 28 June 2020 06:38 AM

The argument that we shouldn’t care about these lives because they are only a few is an argument that those lives don’t matter.

Nonsense, what a ridiculous strawman. No one says we shouldn’t care. But is it a crisis? No. Does it justify massive protests and riots? Obviously not. Imagine if this were done for all deaths, what would the world look like?

Your argument is that BLM and protesters are blowing this out of proportion.  You are telling me that I should not care about these lives as much as BLM and the protesters are asking me to.

You are telling me to care less about them.

This isn’t a strawman, this is reaching the conclusion of your argument.

Do you seriously not understand the difference between caring less and not caring at all?
You should obviously care the appropriate amount (whatever that means exactly but you know what I mean ...)
If you cared this much about all unjustified deaths then you’d have to burn down the entire world. Does this seriously seem like an appropriate response to you? This doesn’t make sense at all.

 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
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28 June 2020 08:57
 

Police and police authority are increasingly cooperating with the peaceful protesters BECAUSE a commitment to justice isn’t about what job you do. Few people appreciate the systemic injustice and corruption within police department and within courts better than sworn officers who aren’t corrupt.  Being in the employ of the police they are simply very poorly placed to stand tall and call this out. That’s what the assembly of private citizens is for. Listen to the testimony in the hearings on police reform. It isn’t just parents of murdered children. It’s court officers who are finding the courage and the support to testify about something that has been going on for too long.

The people who try and discredit protest today use the exact same logic and value structure as the people who opposed protest sixty years ago. Or a hundred and fifty five years ago. Or two hundred and sixty years ago. There is always a motive to preserve the status quo. There is always a way to disparage public outcry.

I hear the reasons. They just aren’t new reasons.

 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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28 June 2020 10:23
 
pluka - 28 June 2020 07:55 AM
weird buffalo - 28 June 2020 07:51 AM
pluka - 28 June 2020 07:20 AM
weird buffalo - 28 June 2020 06:38 AM

The argument that we shouldn’t care about these lives because they are only a few is an argument that those lives don’t matter.

Nonsense, what a ridiculous strawman. No one says we shouldn’t care. But is it a crisis? No. Does it justify massive protests and riots? Obviously not. Imagine if this were done for all deaths, what would the world look like?

Your argument is that BLM and protesters are blowing this out of proportion.  You are telling me that I should not care about these lives as much as BLM and the protesters are asking me to.

You are telling me to care less about them.

This isn’t a strawman, this is reaching the conclusion of your argument.

Do you seriously not understand the difference between caring less and not caring at all?
You should obviously care the appropriate amount (whatever that means exactly but you know what I mean ...)
If you cared this much about all unjustified deaths then you’d have to burn down the entire world. Does this seriously seem like an appropriate response to you? This doesn’t make sense at all.

We aren’t talking about other issues.  We are talking about this issue.

Do the lives the people who have been killed, and those who will be killed, matter enough to you to talk about police reforms?  It’s a yes/no question.

Talking about lives else where in the world tells me that you want to distract from this issue and not deal with it.  From that, I conclude that you think these lives matter less.

[ Edited: 28 June 2020 10:26 by weird buffalo]
 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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28 June 2020 12:30
 
pluka - 28 June 2020 04:55 AM
Brick Bungalow - 27 June 2020 10:01 AM

Playing stupid about ‘all lives matter’ is pretty transparent. Say what you will but know that you fool no one.

If you break your leg and scream in pain I will shrug and declare that all bones matter. If you express distress over the 911 attacks I will gently correct your mistaken concern by pointing out that all buildings matter. If a member of your family is murdered I will say… so what, ALL LIVES MATTER. Everyone understands how callous this is when something they care about personally is at stake.

Everyone knows that this is gas lighting and deflection and mockery. No intelligent person fails to understand the tactic. Lets be real about that and not condescend to duplicitous argumentation.

Your analogies only work if there is a real crisis which the numbers don’t support nor obviously is believed by those who say all lives matter in order to both assert that black lives do matter but also discredit the BLM organization which is based on distortion, even inversion of reality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country  (see blue column - Rate per 10 million people)

[ Edited: 28 June 2020 12:39 by unsmoked]
 
 
TwoSeven1
 
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TwoSeven1
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28 June 2020 12:38
 
Brick Bungalow - 27 June 2020 10:01 AM

Playing stupid about ‘all lives matter’ is pretty transparent. Say what you will but know that you fool no one.

If you break your leg and scream in pain I will shrug and declare that all bones matter. If you express distress over the 911 attacks I will gently correct your mistaken concern by pointing out that all buildings matter. If a member of your family is murdered I will say… so what, ALL LIVES MATTER. Everyone understands how callous this is when something they care about personally is at stake.

Everyone knows that this is gas lighting and deflection and mockery. No intelligent person fails to understand the tactic. Lets be real about that and not condescend to duplicitous argumentation.

“If you break your leg and scream in pain I will shrug and declare that all bones matter.”

I wouldn’t be asking you to say that my bones matter if I broke my leg.  I’d be seeking medical attention, and not from you.

“If you express distress over the 911 attacks I will gently correct your mistaken concern by pointing out that all buildings matter.”

Yeah, because people were only upset about the buildings being destroyed…  Do you know how many people died that day?

“If a member of your family is murdered I will say… so what, ALL LIVES MATTER.”

It’s the “so what” part that you are attributing to people who are unwilling to say what BLM and the left want us to say.  You’re coming across as bitter and vindictive.

“Everyone understands how callous this is when something they care about personally is at stake.”

Everyone should understand that you need to misrepresent the issue in order to have an emotional argument to make.

“Lets be real about that and not condescend to duplicitous argumentation.”

Agreed.  When are you going to stop being deceitful?

 
pluka
 
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pluka
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28 June 2020 13:48
 
weird buffalo - 28 June 2020 10:23 AM

We aren’t talking about other issues.  We are talking about this issue.

Do the lives the people who have been killed, and those who will be killed, matter enough to you to talk about police reforms?  It’s a yes/no question.

Obviously yes. In fact, no one needs to be killed in order for us to talk about police reforms. We should always strive to continuously improve the institutions of our countries. Looting stores, though? Burning down buildings? Not justified at all.

By the way, could you explain what exactly “this issue” is that you’re talking about? Is it that a very small number of black people are killed without justification in police shootings every year? And what kind of solution do you see for this problem? What kind of police reforms would you like to see?

weird buffalo - 28 June 2020 10:23 AM

Talking about lives else where in the world tells me that you want to distract from this issue and not deal with it.  From that, I conclude that you think these lives matter less.

Not sure how you reach your conclusions but it looks like logic is not involved.

[ Edited: 28 June 2020 14:00 by pluka]
 
pluka
 
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pluka
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28 June 2020 13:50
 
unsmoked - 28 June 2020 12:30 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country  (see blue column - Rate per 10 million people)

I thought we were talking about unjustified killings of unarmed people.
Obviously if you include justified killings of armed and dangerous suspects the numbers will be much larger, but then you can’t just simply blame the police anymore.

 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
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28 June 2020 16:31
 

The protestors today discredit themselves.  Their “leaders” have proven time and again their total ignorance of the problems in policing, and their proposed solutions to their manufactured crisis are idiotic.  And the signs and slogans show this problem is endemic to the entire movement, whatever people of good sense and good will who get on board.  Nothing like the civil rights protestors of the 50’s and 60’s; they got both the problems and the solutions right.  They made the right difference because they identified the right problem and demanded the right solution.

In any case, right now the police themselves are making progress despite the stupidity of the “public” response, not because they are in sync with it, and the best chance we have of meaningful reform is for the protestors to shut up and let the adults in the room handle the situation.

Though, alas, if the Democrats in Congress are any indication, there are precious few of those…

[ Edited: 28 June 2020 18:11 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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29 June 2020 10:29
 
pluka - 28 June 2020 01:50 PM
unsmoked - 28 June 2020 12:30 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country  (see blue column - Rate per 10 million people)

I thought we were talking about unjustified killings of unarmed people.
Obviously if you include justified killings of armed and dangerous suspects the numbers will be much larger, but then you can’t just simply blame the police anymore.

Referring to the blue column in this article, (rate per 10 million people) why do you think the U.S.killings by police are so much higher than countries like France, Germany, Switzerland, U.K., Canada and dozens of others? 

About the title of this topic - if the November election is a poker game and Trump has pushed in all his chips, would you agree that one of his cards is the ‘white supremacy/racism card?  (the card that will get him the most votes).  Naturally Pence isn’t going to say anything that will dissuade any of those votes.  Like Trump, he will publicly insist that he is not a racist, but by refusing to say ‘Black Lives Matter’, he assures Trump’s good people that Trump is their man.

 
 
pluka
 
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pluka
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29 June 2020 13:33
 
unsmoked - 29 June 2020 10:29 AM

Referring to the blue column in this article, (rate per 10 million people) why do you think the U.S.killings by police are so much higher than countries like France, Germany, Switzerland, U.K., Canada and dozens of others?

More violent crime, I guess?

unsmoked - 29 June 2020 10:29 AM

About the title of this topic - if the November election is a poker game and Trump has pushed in all his chips, would you agree that one of his cards is the ‘white supremacy/racism card?  (the card that will get him the most votes).  Naturally Pence isn’t going to say anything that will dissuade any of those votes.  Like Trump, he will publicly insist that he is not a racist, but by refusing to say ‘Black Lives Matter’, he assures Trump’s good people that Trump is their man.

While racism is certainly real, your boogeymen who are so extremely racist as to actually be offended by the literal meaning of “black lives matter” are not real in any number relevant for this election. It is the far left organization founded by self proclaimed Marxists, not the literal meaning, that most people have a problem with, as was already explained ad nauseam in this thread.

 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
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30 June 2020 07:49
 
pluka - 28 June 2020 04:55 AM
Brick Bungalow - 27 June 2020 10:01 AM

Playing stupid about ‘all lives matter’ is pretty transparent. Say what you will but know that you fool no one.

If you break your leg and scream in pain I will shrug and declare that all bones matter. If you express distress over the 911 attacks I will gently correct your mistaken concern by pointing out that all buildings matter. If a member of your family is murdered I will say… so what, ALL LIVES MATTER. Everyone understands how callous this is when something they care about personally is at stake.

Everyone knows that this is gas lighting and deflection and mockery. No intelligent person fails to understand the tactic. Lets be real about that and not condescend to duplicitous argumentation.

Your analogies only work if there is a real crisis which the numbers don’t support nor obviously is believed by those who say all lives matter in order to both assert that black lives do matter but also discredit the BLM organization which is based on distortion, even inversion of reality.

No. The same folks sponsoring All Lives Matter also underwrite Blue Lives Matter. Which, if your reasoning is consistent has even less validity.

The deductive conclusion of those two premises is that a lot of people simply don’t like the word ‘black’.

 
pluka
 
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pluka
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30 June 2020 08:01
 
Brick Bungalow - 30 June 2020 07:49 AM

No. The same folks sponsoring All Lives Matter also underwrite Blue Lives Matter.

That would be called a strawman, but I shall entertain it.

Brick Bungalow - 30 June 2020 07:49 AM

Which, if your reasoning is consistent has even less validity.

Is blue lives matter even an organization? Is it founded by Marxists? Are there blue lives matter protests where stores are looted and buildings burned down? Are they claiming there is a genocide against police going on?

Maybe it is actually appropriately responding to a real issue and if BLM used the same approach reasonable people might support it as well?

Where exactly is the inconsistency?

[ Edited: 30 June 2020 08:04 by pluka]
 
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