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Racism

 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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10 August 2020 12:47
 
Cs3 - 06 August 2020 12:50 PM

...

Even with them saying they dislike the Israelites it’s not racist?

S

The Israelites, assuming they ever existed, lived some 3000 years ago, there are no modern Israelites.  Since a) the bibilical text reporting on Israelites is also part of Islamic religious doctrine, and b) Moses, the reported leader of the Israelites is regarded as a prophet by Islam, I’m a little curious where you come up with “they” saying they dislike the Israelites? 

Also, who do you mean by “they”?  Is it just a couple of Islamic leaders or scholars, if so, why do the beliefs of one or two make everyone ascribing to the religion racist?

 
Cs3
 
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Cs3
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19 August 2020 13:15
 
icehorse - 06 August 2020 12:58 PM
Cs3 - 06 August 2020 12:50 PM
icehorse - 06 August 2020 11:49 AM
Cs3 - 03 August 2020 04:33 PM

Does Sam Harris believe Islam is a racist religion because I feel at times it is, no matter if my views on Islam disagrees with Sam Harris or not?

I don’t know what Harris believes. That said, I think many people associate Islam with Arabic people and so that could lead to some confused claims that being critical of Islam is somehow racist.

But of course we know that there are hundreds of millions of Muslims that live no where near “Arabia” and who do not have an Arabic genealogy. Therefore being critical of Islam is not - per se - racist.

Even with them saying they dislike the Israelites it’s not racist?

Well now you’re bringing a new claim into the discussion.

We need to talk about it.

 
burt
 
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burt
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20 August 2020 09:25
 
Nhoj Morley - 06 August 2020 09:51 AM
burt - 06 August 2020 09:01 AM
Nhoj Morley - 05 August 2020 10:54 PM

Don’t worry. I’m asymptomatic.

That’s a long stretch.

A stretch of what?

The asymptotic tail wagging the dog?

 
Cs3
 
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Cs3
Total Posts:  16
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24 August 2020 08:47
 
burt - 20 August 2020 09:25 AM
Nhoj Morley - 06 August 2020 09:51 AM
burt - 06 August 2020 09:01 AM
Nhoj Morley - 05 August 2020 10:54 PM

Don’t worry. I’m asymptomatic.

That’s a long stretch.

A stretch of what?

The asymptotic tail wagging the dog?[/quote

Meaning?

 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
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06 September 2020 10:35
 

Sam does a have a special chip about Islam but he makes the apt distinctions. Muslims as people are not identical to the doctrines of Islam. The sects of Islam are not identical. The institutions of Islam are not identical to either the believers or the doctrines. The institutions are not identical to each other. Et cetera. 

So essentially, the question is too broad. It’s like asking if white people are racist. Some would answer yes based on their tribal ideology but a meaningful answer requires more specificity.

I believe Sam would say that the scriptures, doctrines and especially the legal structures of Islam within Islamic states tend toward racism. But the specifics matter. Once you start in with broad generalizations you are parcel to the problem and not the solution

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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06 September 2020 10:41
 
Brick Bungalow - 06 September 2020 10:35 AM

Sam does a have a special chip about Islam but he makes the apt distinctions. Muslims as people are not identical to the doctrines of Islam. The sects of Islam are not identical. The institutions of Islam are not identical to either the believers or the doctrines. The institutions are not identical to each other. Et cetera. 

So essentially, the question is too broad. It’s like asking if white people are racist. Some would answer yes based on their tribal ideology but a meaningful answer requires more specificity.

I believe Sam would say that the scriptures, doctrines and especially the legal structures of Islam within Islamic states tend toward racism. But the specifics matter. Once you start in with broad generalizations you are parcel to the problem and not the solution

It seems to me that if there is not a small, universal, core set of ideas in a religion, it’s not a religion. Can you find a significant number of Muslims who would disagree with, say, the five pillars? The perfection of the Quran? The idea that Muhammad was the perfect role model?

 

 
 
Cs3
 
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Cs3
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11 September 2020 20:27
 
icehorse - 06 September 2020 10:41 AM
Brick Bungalow - 06 September 2020 10:35 AM

Sam does a have a special chip about Islam but he makes the apt distinctions. Muslims as people are not identical to the doctrines of Islam. The sects of Islam are not identical. The institutions of Islam are not identical to either the believers or the doctrines. The institutions are not identical to each other. Et cetera. 

So essentially, the question is too broad. It’s like asking if white people are racist. Some would answer yes based on their tribal ideology but a meaningful answer requires more specificity.

I believe Sam would say that the scriptures, doctrines and especially the legal structures of Islam within Islamic states tend toward racism. But the specifics matter. Once you start in with broad generalizations you are parcel to the problem and not the solution

It seems to me that if there is not a small, universal, core set of ideas in a religion, it’s not a religion. Can you find a significant number of Muslims who would disagree with, say, the five pillars? The perfection of the Quran? The idea that Muhammad was the perfect role model?

I understand.

 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
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15 September 2020 19:10
 
icehorse - 06 September 2020 10:41 AM
Brick Bungalow - 06 September 2020 10:35 AM

Sam does a have a special chip about Islam but he makes the apt distinctions. Muslims as people are not identical to the doctrines of Islam. The sects of Islam are not identical. The institutions of Islam are not identical to either the believers or the doctrines. The institutions are not identical to each other. Et cetera. 

So essentially, the question is too broad. It’s like asking if white people are racist. Some would answer yes based on their tribal ideology but a meaningful answer requires more specificity.

I believe Sam would say that the scriptures, doctrines and especially the legal structures of Islam within Islamic states tend toward racism. But the specifics matter. Once you start in with broad generalizations you are parcel to the problem and not the solution

It seems to me that if there is not a small, universal, core set of ideas in a religion, it’s not a religion. Can you find a significant number of Muslims who would disagree with, say, the five pillars? The perfection of the Quran? The idea that Muhammad was the perfect role model?

Well, yes. I live in a region with an almost limitless variety of religious professions and variations. There are secular, cultural muslims who claim to have no dogmatic beliefs. But that’s a throwaway. The real point, for me is whether or not a persons behavior is moving the state and the culture toward tolerance and equity and peace. And if you ask me whether there are muslim communities that do this I would say emphatically yes. Just as there are tolerant and constructive communities within other religious sets. Do they have some profound internal conflicts between their documents and the project of a plural community? Of course. But I think most anyone has some contradictions to work through. What I want to do is give individuals credit for their behavior… even if their background is problematic.

The reason this is especially important is because we simply have little chance of flipping an entire faith on its head from the outside. Whatever chance Islam has of wholesale reform and significant moves toward enlightenment values will come from within their own communities. So the best I can do, I think, is to support those variations of Islam that uphold a an ethical baseline I can live with.

 
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