Competence as privilege

 
Jb8989
 
Avatar
 
 
Jb8989
Total Posts:  6645
Joined  31-01-2012
 
 
 
15 August 2020 08:50
 

I think this is the racism toward white people that’s baking up extreme views. It might go like this:

If you’ve been doing something well, and doing it for a while, and you enter a system where either diversity or affirmative action or both have been conflated with the only way the job can get done competently, there’ll be racism under the guise of privilege even - but actually especially - when you objectively outperform. In many ways it’ll be the marker that triggers your privilege. It’s not that insidious until you realize that the ways to adapt are limited to underperformance, which naming it as such is equally if not more racist. It’s quick sand.

Maybe this is the Crux of the silent civil war on the minds of many whites.

 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  8190
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
15 August 2020 09:07
 

We should fight hard for equal opportunity.

We should be very skeptical of initiatives that promote equality of outcome. (Harrison Bergeron anyone?)

 
 
burt
 
Avatar
 
 
burt
Total Posts:  16165
Joined  17-12-2006
 
 
 
15 August 2020 09:53
 
icehorse - 15 August 2020 09:07 AM

We should fight hard for equal opportunity.

We should be very skeptical of initiatives that promote equality of outcome. (Harrison Bergeron anyone?)

In principle I’m in agreement, but there are problems since if there is no equality of opportunity from birth, then at a later date there may be no possibility of performance at a level guaranteeing equality of opportunity. For example, two newborns, one black in poverty, the other white in an upper middle class home. By the time they graduate from high school the latter will likely have had 18 years of benefits that give them more competence in terms of university admission.

 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  8190
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
15 August 2020 12:45
 
burt - 15 August 2020 09:53 AM
icehorse - 15 August 2020 09:07 AM

We should fight hard for equal opportunity.

We should be very skeptical of initiatives that promote equality of outcome. (Harrison Bergeron anyone?)

In principle I’m in agreement, but there are problems since if there is no equality of opportunity from birth, then at a later date there may be no possibility of performance at a level guaranteeing equality of opportunity. For example, two newborns, one black in poverty, the other white in an upper middle class home. By the time they graduate from high school the latter will likely have had 18 years of benefits that give them more competence in terms of university admission.

So far I’m with you, 100%. But now what to do about those two 18 year olds?

 
 
weird buffalo
 
Avatar
 
 
weird buffalo
Total Posts:  465
Joined  19-06-2020
 
 
 
15 August 2020 16:40
 

I’m with you that we cannot compare equality of outcome between two individuals.  There are too many variables that we cannot truly know that the outcome would 100% have been different if we changed a small number of variables.

Instead, we should discuss the outcomes on the population level.  I would agree that affirmative action is a crude, slow, and inefficient tool.  Unfortunately it is one of the few tools we have.  Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.  I’m willing to abandon my support for affirmative action once we have better tools in place.  Universal basic income and health care are two such tools.  Baby bonds would be another tool.

If my car is broke, and all I have is a carpenter’s tool box, I’m not going to sit around complaining about having the wrong tools, I’m going to do the best I can.

 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  8190
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
15 August 2020 17:36
 
weird buffalo - 15 August 2020 04:40 PM

I’m with you that we cannot compare equality of outcome between two individuals.  There are too many variables that we cannot truly know that the outcome would 100% have been different if we changed a small number of variables.

Instead, we should discuss the outcomes on the population level.  I would agree that affirmative action is a crude, slow, and inefficient tool.  Unfortunately it is one of the few tools we have.  Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.  I’m willing to abandon my support for affirmative action once we have better tools in place.  Universal basic income and health care are two such tools.  Baby bonds would be another tool.

If my car is broke, and all I have is a carpenter’s tool box, I’m not going to sit around complaining about having the wrong tools, I’m going to do the best I can.

Agreed on the enemy of the good. I probably should rephrase / refine my concerns about equality of outcome. How about “we should be skeptical of any equality of outcome initiatives that weaken the importance of skill and / or expertise.”

 
 
burt
 
Avatar
 
 
burt
Total Posts:  16165
Joined  17-12-2006
 
 
 
15 August 2020 20:10
 
icehorse - 15 August 2020 12:45 PM
burt - 15 August 2020 09:53 AM
icehorse - 15 August 2020 09:07 AM

We should fight hard for equal opportunity.

We should be very skeptical of initiatives that promote equality of outcome. (Harrison Bergeron anyone?)

In principle I’m in agreement, but there are problems since if there is no equality of opportunity from birth, then at a later date there may be no possibility of performance at a level guaranteeing equality of opportunity. For example, two newborns, one black in poverty, the other white in an upper middle class home. By the time they graduate from high school the latter will likely have had 18 years of benefits that give them more competence in terms of university admission.

So far I’m with you, 100%. But now what to do about those two 18 year olds?

Exactly.

 
weird buffalo
 
Avatar
 
 
weird buffalo
Total Posts:  465
Joined  19-06-2020
 
 
 
15 August 2020 21:43
 
icehorse - 15 August 2020 05:36 PM
weird buffalo - 15 August 2020 04:40 PM

I’m with you that we cannot compare equality of outcome between two individuals.  There are too many variables that we cannot truly know that the outcome would 100% have been different if we changed a small number of variables.

Instead, we should discuss the outcomes on the population level.  I would agree that affirmative action is a crude, slow, and inefficient tool.  Unfortunately it is one of the few tools we have.  Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.  I’m willing to abandon my support for affirmative action once we have better tools in place.  Universal basic income and health care are two such tools.  Baby bonds would be another tool.

If my car is broke, and all I have is a carpenter’s tool box, I’m not going to sit around complaining about having the wrong tools, I’m going to do the best I can.

Agreed on the enemy of the good. I probably should rephrase / refine my concerns about equality of outcome. How about “we should be skeptical of any equality of outcome initiatives that weaken the importance of skill and / or expertise.”

Except affirmative action directly recognizes the importance of skill and expertise.  The whole point is to increase skill and expertise in communities that have been denied opportunity previously.  If you value skill an expertise, then you should value a tool that provides poorer communities access to both things in order to be able to help themselves.

 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  8190
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
16 August 2020 07:19
 
weird buffalo - 15 August 2020 09:43 PM
icehorse - 15 August 2020 05:36 PM
weird buffalo - 15 August 2020 04:40 PM

I’m with you that we cannot compare equality of outcome between two individuals.  There are too many variables that we cannot truly know that the outcome would 100% have been different if we changed a small number of variables.

Instead, we should discuss the outcomes on the population level.  I would agree that affirmative action is a crude, slow, and inefficient tool.  Unfortunately it is one of the few tools we have.  Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.  I’m willing to abandon my support for affirmative action once we have better tools in place.  Universal basic income and health care are two such tools.  Baby bonds would be another tool.

If my car is broke, and all I have is a carpenter’s tool box, I’m not going to sit around complaining about having the wrong tools, I’m going to do the best I can.

Agreed on the enemy of the good. I probably should rephrase / refine my concerns about equality of outcome. How about “we should be skeptical of any equality of outcome initiatives that weaken the importance of skill and / or expertise.”

Except affirmative action directly recognizes the importance of skill and expertise.  The whole point is to increase skill and expertise in communities that have been denied opportunity previously.  If you value skill an expertise, then you should value a tool that provides poorer communities access to both things in order to be able to help themselves.

Sometimes.

And when it does, hooray!

 
 
Twissel
 
Avatar
 
 
Twissel
Total Posts:  3162
Joined  19-01-2015
 
 
 
16 August 2020 10:37
 

Acknowledging that you have a privilege, be it by birth or through hard work, is a necessary first step.
Not always there is something that can or should be done to assist those without the privilege.
But just because you made it to the top doesn’t mean you get to have rights to the mountain in perpetuity.

 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  8190
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
16 August 2020 16:46
 
Twissel - 16 August 2020 10:37 AM

Acknowledging that you have a privilege, be it by birth or through hard work, is a necessary first step.
Not always there is something that can or should be done to assist those without the privilege.
But just because you made it to the top doesn’t mean you get to have rights to the mountain in perpetuity.

Is there anyone on this forum who think think doesn’t agree with this?

 
 
Skipshot
 
Avatar
 
 
Skipshot
Total Posts:  10193
Joined  20-10-2006
 
 
 
18 August 2020 08:21
 

Jeez, I hate the stupid legacy of overt racism we are still living with.  “Can’t we all just get along.”  “It doesn’t matter if the cat is black or white.  If it catches mice it is a good cat.”

And can we stop giving “privilege” a negative connotation?  Yes, it has been abused and there are many cases of it, but there are just as many cases where it was for good which go unrecognized.

 
burt
 
Avatar
 
 
burt
Total Posts:  16165
Joined  17-12-2006
 
 
 
18 August 2020 09:27
 
Skipshot - 18 August 2020 08:21 AM

Jeez, I hate the stupid legacy of overt racism we are still living with.  “Can’t we all just get along.”  “It doesn’t matter if the cat is black or white.  If it catches mice it is a good cat.”

And can we stop giving “privilege” a negative connotation?  Yes, it has been abused and there are many cases of it, but there are just as many cases where it was for good which go unrecognized.

Doris Lessing (Prisons We Choose to Live Inside) remarked that people on the left disparaged “elites” until they were renamed as “the vanguard of the proletariat.”

 
Brick Bungalow
 
Avatar
 
 
Brick Bungalow
Total Posts:  5452
Joined  28-05-2009
 
 
 
21 August 2020 21:24
 

I think any advantage one has is a privilege. In the long view. None of us bootstrapped our starting pace. It’s telling when someone goes into sarcasm mode at the mere mention of privilege. The rest of the retort is pretty predictable. The paranoia of being denied credit for ones labor isn’t compelling the moment you acknowledge who truly works hardest in this world.

I think privilege is a good thing. I’d like to have more. I think it would be a good thing to divide up equally, however that could best be achieved.

 
Jb8989
 
Avatar
 
 
Jb8989
Total Posts:  6645
Joined  31-01-2012
 
 
 
22 August 2020 08:51
 
Brick Bungalow - 21 August 2020 09:24 PM

I think any advantage one has is a privilege. In the long view. None of us bootstrapped our starting pace. It’s telling when someone goes into sarcasm mode at the mere mention of privilege. The rest of the retort is pretty predictable. The paranoia of being denied credit for ones labor isn’t compelling the moment you acknowledge who truly works hardest in this world.

I think privilege is a good thing. I’d like to have more. I think it would be a good thing to divide up equally, however that could best be achieved.

I wouldn’t rule out justified paranoia for reasons conflated. The recovery of which, BTW, feels a bit like not giving a fuck in the most delightful way possible. While everyone did not disappoint, nobody could have been expected to get it, and that was truly my bad for thinking it could.

Anyway, some means…

Corporate equity, criminal Justice representation, social security and welfare intelligence, medicaid innovations, and business investment.

And yeah sure some sensitivity training.