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What Islamists and ‘Wokeists’ Have in Common

 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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10 September 2020 18:52
 

The WSJ editorial by Ayaan Hirsi Ali is behind a paywall, but here are a few select quotes.

. . . The power of the illiberal elements in the American left has grown, not just on campus but in the media and many corporations. They have inculcated in a generation of students an ideology that has much more in common with the intolerant doctrines of a religious cult than with the secular political thought I studied at Holland’s Leiden University.

In the debates after 9/11, many people sought materialist explanations for the attacks. American foreign policy in the Middle East was blamed, or lack of education and employment opportunities in the Arab world. I argued that none of these could explain the motivations of the plotters and hijackers, who in any case were far from underprivileged. Their goal was religious and political: to wage jihad against their kin if they didn’t accept a literal interpretation of Islam, to denounce Arab governments as corrupt and their Western allies as infidels, and ultimately to overthrow the established order in the Middle East and establish a caliphate.

American policy makers preferred the materialist explanations, as they implied actions to solve the problem: invasion, regime change, democratization. It was unpopular to suggest that the terrorists might have unshakable immaterial convictions.

Nineteen years on, we see a similar dynamic, only this time it is within our borders. Naive observers explain this summer’s protests in terms of African-Americans’ material disadvantages. These are real, as are the (worse) socio-economic problems of the Arab world. But they aren’t the main driver of the protests, which appear to be led mainly by well-off white people. [More on this below.]

Their ideology goes by many names: cancel culture, social justice, critical race theory, intersectionality. For simplicity, I call it all Wokeism.

. . .

The adherents of each constantly pursue ideological purity, certain of their own rectitude. Neither Islamists nor the Woke will engage in debate; both prefer indoctrination of the submissive and damnation of those who resist.

The two ideologies have distinctive rituals: Islamists shout “Allahu Akbar” and “Death to America”; the Woke chant “Black lives matter” and “I can’t breathe.” Islamists pray to Mecca; the Woke take the knee. Both like burning the American flag.

Both believe that those who refuse conversion may be harassed, or worse. Both take offense at every opportunity and seek not just apologies but concessions. Islamism inveighs against “blasphemy”; Wokeism wants to outlaw “hate speech.” Islamists use the word “Islamophobia” to silence critics; the Woke do the same with “racism.”

. . .

Both ideologies aim to tear down the existing system and replace it with utopias that always turn out to be hellish anarchies: Islamic State in Raqqa, the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone in Seattle. Both are collectivist: Group identity trumps the individual. Both tolerate—and often glorify—violence carried out by zealots.

This Sept. 11, then, let’s dismiss the fairy stories about the enemies of a free society. Their grievances aren’t merely economic and they won’t be satisfied with jobs or entitlements. Their motivations are ideological and they will be satisfied only with power.

“But they aren’t the main driver of the protests, which appear to be led mainly by well-off white people.”

A model, an English professor’s daughter and a freelance art director: The charmed lives of the seven ‘comrades’ arrested for rioting after causing $100,000 of damage to Manhattan stores

* Clara Kraebber, 20, was arrested along with Adi Sragovich, 20, Frank Fuhrmeister, 30, model Claire Severine, 27, Etkar Surette, 27, and Elliot Rucka, 20, Jade O’Halloran, 30, were all arrested on Friday

* They are charged with rioting, vandalism and some were charged with weapons offenses

* Most are college students and Fuhrmeister works as a freelance art director

* Adi’s mother said she lost her phone in the riots and that she arranged for her to get a new one

* Severine is a model who thinks ‘beauty can be found everywhere and in everyone’

* Rucka’s parents are famous comic book writers from Portland, Oregon

* NYPD sources called the group, specifically Kraebber, the ‘height of hypocrisy’

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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10 September 2020 21:37
 

I didn’t realize Tucker Carlson was a lefty… or is he an Islamist?

 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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11 September 2020 00:46
 

The MAGA crowd is upset that the Left is starting to use the tactics the religious right has been using for decades.

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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11 September 2020 09:22
 

It’s telling that you quote the Daily Mail, a source rated “low” on the factual reporting score at mediabiasfactcheck.com

 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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11 September 2020 10:07
 

Hirsi Ali equates “woke” people with terrorists.  For sure, “terrorist” is more damning and silencing that “islamophobe” or “racist” - once can be arrested for the first but not, at least in the US, the others.  She’s sure of her own rectitude, and prefers the indoctrination of the submissive and damnation of those who resist her ideology.  Also, refuses any meaningful debate.  Undoubtedly, she’s trying to silence her critics by calling them “terrorist”.

I should call this reply, “what Hirsi Ali and Islamists have in common”.  Except, I’m not sure about the Islamists - some probably are as she describes, but there’s a lot of them out there so I can’t say that about all of them.

[ Edited: 11 September 2020 10:12 by lynmc]
 
weird buffalo
 
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11 September 2020 12:17
 
lynmc - 11 September 2020 09:22 AM

It’s telling that you quote the Daily Mail, a source rated “low” on the factual reporting score at mediabiasfactcheck.com

Just because it’s in the Daily Mail does not mean it is factually incorrect.  The question is, even if true, is it relevant?

In the wake of George Floyd’s killing, approximately 15,000,000 to 26,000,000 people have participated in protests around the country.  For Ali, ASD, or the Daily Mail to make an argument using these seven people, it would have to provide conclusive evidence that they are “typical” protesters, or that these people are somehow in control of the majority of protests.

Because the fact that they could find seven assholes amongst 15+ million people is hardly surprising.  I would actually expect the number of assholes in the protests to be much higher than seven.  Usually in a group of 20 people there’s at least one, but maybe I’m just the asshole so it’s skewing my perception.

It isn’t enough to point out these seven are assholes, the argument has to be made why that matters.

 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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11 September 2020 14:13
 
weird buffalo - 11 September 2020 12:17 PM
lynmc - 11 September 2020 09:22 AM

It’s telling that you quote the Daily Mail, a source rated “low” on the factual reporting score at mediabiasfactcheck.com

Just because it’s in the Daily Mail does not mean it is factually incorrect.  The question is, even if true, is it relevant?

In the wake of George Floyd’s killing, approximately 15,000,000 to 26,000,000 people have participated in protests around the country.  For Ali, ASD, or the Daily Mail to make an argument using these seven people, it would have to provide conclusive evidence that they are “typical” protesters, or that these people are somehow in control of the majority of protests.

Because the fact that they could find seven assholes amongst 15+ million people is hardly surprising.  I would actually expect the number of assholes in the protests to be much higher than seven.  Usually in a group of 20 people there’s at least one, but maybe I’m just the asshole so it’s skewing my perception.

It isn’t enough to point out these seven are assholes, the argument has to be made why that matters.

Says the man who insists “speech is violence,” a trite slogan so ridiculous only a teenage girl with a crush on her middle-aged English lit professor could possibly take it seriously. Or someone in academia, more likely.

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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11 September 2020 14:14
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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11 September 2020 15:03
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 11 September 2020 02:13 PM
weird buffalo - 11 September 2020 12:17 PM
lynmc - 11 September 2020 09:22 AM

It’s telling that you quote the Daily Mail, a source rated “low” on the factual reporting score at mediabiasfactcheck.com

Just because it’s in the Daily Mail does not mean it is factually incorrect.  The question is, even if true, is it relevant?

In the wake of George Floyd’s killing, approximately 15,000,000 to 26,000,000 people have participated in protests around the country.  For Ali, ASD, or the Daily Mail to make an argument using these seven people, it would have to provide conclusive evidence that they are “typical” protesters, or that these people are somehow in control of the majority of protests.

Because the fact that they could find seven assholes amongst 15+ million people is hardly surprising.  I would actually expect the number of assholes in the protests to be much higher than seven.  Usually in a group of 20 people there’s at least one, but maybe I’m just the asshole so it’s skewing my perception.

It isn’t enough to point out these seven are assholes, the argument has to be made why that matters.

Says the man who insists “speech is violence,” a trite slogan so ridiculous only a teenage girl with a crush on her middle-aged English lit professor could possibly take it seriously. Or someone in academia, more likely.

Considering you didn’t refute anything I said, I will assume that you agree that what I said was true.

All you have are strawman arguments that you knock down and then act like everyone should be so impressed by it.  It’s like you’re here to preach at people.

[ Edited: 11 September 2020 15:08 by weird buffalo]
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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11 September 2020 18:32
 
weird buffalo - 11 September 2020 03:03 PM
Antisocialdarwinist - 11 September 2020 02:13 PM
weird buffalo - 11 September 2020 12:17 PM
lynmc - 11 September 2020 09:22 AM

It’s telling that you quote the Daily Mail, a source rated “low” on the factual reporting score at mediabiasfactcheck.com

Just because it’s in the Daily Mail does not mean it is factually incorrect.  The question is, even if true, is it relevant?

In the wake of George Floyd’s killing, approximately 15,000,000 to 26,000,000 people have participated in protests around the country.  For Ali, ASD, or the Daily Mail to make an argument using these seven people, it would have to provide conclusive evidence that they are “typical” protesters, or that these people are somehow in control of the majority of protests.

Because the fact that they could find seven assholes amongst 15+ million people is hardly surprising.  I would actually expect the number of assholes in the protests to be much higher than seven.  Usually in a group of 20 people there’s at least one, but maybe I’m just the asshole so it’s skewing my perception.

It isn’t enough to point out these seven are assholes, the argument has to be made why that matters.

Says the man who insists “speech is violence,” a trite slogan so ridiculous only a teenage girl with a crush on her middle-aged English lit professor could possibly take it seriously. Or someone in academia, more likely.

Considering you didn’t refute anything I said, I will assume that you agree that what I said was true.

All you have are strawman arguments that you knock down and then act like everyone should be so impressed by it.  It’s like you’re here to preach at people.

Considering you didn’t refute it, I will assume that you are a teenage girl with a crush on your English lit professor.

 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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11 September 2020 18:48
 

First of all, comparing murderous jihadists to “woke,” white, bourgeois, college-educated people is a ridiculous comparison. Who have the “woke” ever killed?

This guy, Ali, has his head up his you-know-what.

There has been a steady pent up pressure building in this country for decades now. It is manifesting in both the Left and Right political ideologies. The middle class is shrinking and being squeezed more and more by the ever climbing cost of living for goods and services, as well as larger needs, such as health care, housing and education.

Our government, on the other hand, has turned into a plutocracy, responding mainly to the needs of the corporations and elite wealthy.

People desperately want reform. They want relief from their ever climbing financial burdens and debts, they want some sense of security, they want the system to be fair, and they want a better future for their children. And, they aren’t getting it.

I read this article today in the Atlantic magazine website entitled:
“America’s Plastic Hour Is Upon Us.
The country is at a low point. But we may be on the cusp of an era of radical reform that repairs our broken democracy.”

https://tinyurl.com/y5jh5x7j

Most American reform movements carry a strain of puritanism, a zeal for personal self-correction so powerful that it can sometimes replace the effort to make concrete changes to material conditions. These movements begin with protest from below—by impoverished farmers, striking workers, disenfranchised Black southerners—and rise up into the middle class, which adopts the cause with what the historian Richard Hofstadter, writing of the Progressives, called “a rather strenuous moral purgation.” A personal sense of guilt produces a quasi-religious fervor directed toward social and political ills and a longing for redemption in solidarity with the downtrodden. Progressive crusaders ventured into the slums to expose the squalid conditions of immigrant life; in the ’30s, bourgeois Communists and fellow travelers exalted the proletariat and sacrificed intellectual independence to the iron will of the party; in the ’60s, white college students joined the struggle for Black freedom in the South and then decided that they required their own liberation, too, by means of taking over campuses and curricula.

The paragraph above describes exactly what we are seeing with “Wokeness”.

These movements start out zealous, self-righteous, puritanical, and insufferable, but their ideas eventually get incorporated into the political system as moderate and fair governmental policy.

This is just another political cycle repeating.

[ Edited: 11 September 2020 19:02 by Cheshire Cat]
 
 
Poldano
 
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11 September 2020 23:56
 
Cheshire Cat - 11 September 2020 06:48 PM

...

This guy, Ali, has his head up his you-know-what.

...

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is female, just in case you didn’t know.

...

This is just another political cycle repeating.

Certainly.

The OP’s quoted article does appear to conflate various opinions with “wokeness” that may not really be the same thing, or within the same non-contradictory class description. I think the article does point out an anti-liberal tendency in American academia, which I have seen examples of first-hand. There is a tendency to want to avoid detailed debate in preference to getting on with work based on the premises that would be debated. I don’t like that tendency, but I can see it as rational on the part of those who are used to having their ideas shredded and dismissed by those with better rhetorical skills. I see it as an opportunity to shred the ideas of the shredders on intellectual grounds, but that is hard to do when dealing with deeply hidden assumptions of a common culture, as many of the ideas are.

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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12 September 2020 07:44
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 11 September 2020 06:32 PM

Considering you didn’t refute it, I will assume that you are a teenage girl with a crush on your English lit professor.

If that’s how you want to imagine me, go right ahead.

It’s sad that you have to rely on emotional attacks instead of using logic and reason.

 
weird buffalo
 
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12 September 2020 10:45
 

This was in another thread, but I felt it relevant here too: NH State Rep (Republican) advocates burning and looting homes of people he disagrees with politically.

I doubt he’s wealthy, but it looks like he’s a decently paid professional.  So he can’t be saying this because he’s economically disadvantaged.  He’s glorifying violence for political purposes.  He’s currently in power, so this must be about maintaining power.  It seems that he meets all the criteria for being an Islamist or an extreme left-leaning liberal as well.

If Tucker Carlson and Rep. Spillane, both staunch conservatives, meet the criteria set out above for qualifying as left extremists or islamic terrorists… then I would suggest that the criteria set out in that editorial are bullshit.

Either that, or Fox News has been taken over by Islamic extremists.

 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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12 September 2020 15:03
 
weird buffalo - 12 September 2020 07:44 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 11 September 2020 06:32 PM

Considering you didn’t refute it, I will assume that you are a teenage girl with a crush on your English lit professor.

If that’s how you want to imagine me, go right ahead.

It’s sad that you have to rely on emotional attacks instead of using logic and reason.

That’s ironic, given that you apparently subscribe to an ideology that views logic and reason as mere tools of oppression: “The Master’s tools.”

“Speech is violence” stems almost inevitably from the claim that there is no such thing as objective truth, that an “oppressed” person’s interpretation of their own lived experience yields knowledge every bit as valid as that gleaned from evidence and reason. How, then, does one arbitrate between mutually exclusive “knowledge” claims sans science? By equating any speech that contradicts critical race theory with “violence,” thereby justifying actual violence to silence it.

But I’m wasting my time, explaining this to you. The only thing you understand is emotion. “Speech is violence,” my ass. Grow up, snowflake.

 
 
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12 September 2020 21:26
 

Equality vs. equity

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