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It terrifies me the idea that the self doesn`t exist.

 
mapadofu
 
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mapadofu
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16 November 2020 20:21
 
Hakuna Matata - 14 November 2020 03:31 AM
jro - 11 November 2020 02:05 PM
Hakuna Matata - 11 November 2020 04:31 AM

 

Myself I also have yet to experience transcendence of the self. It is quite interesting that you find this perspective scary while most meditators really want to get there. The thing is that what replaces the self isn’t nothing, rather a none-dualist state, where the separation of subject and object has been overcome. So you can experience true deep connectedness with others, and you cease to be so self-absorbed. To me this sounds like the best recipe for overcoming suffering. But again, I haven’t been there. So this is essentially hearsay…

I wonder if this state that can only be reached under very specific circumstances and only temporarily. Because I believe our sense of self was constructed by the brain for a practical reason. If I sit down to work or solve a problem, I usually have this dialogue in my head where I try to consider all my options before I pick the most appropriate solution. I can`t see how something like this can be done when you are contemplaiting existence in a non-dualistic state.

I see people claiming they don`t have thoughts anymore or very few all the time. How can someone live like that and still be a funcioning member of society? If you don`t think, how can you act? All our actions come after we think.

I don`t want to undermine the importance of such a state. I understand how useful it can be. I just don`t see how it could be usefull all the time but I must be getting something wrong about how it is to experience a none-dualistic state.

Are you sure that all of our actions can only come /after/ we think?

 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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17 November 2020 10:57
 
mapadofu - 16 November 2020 08:21 PM

Are you sure that all of our actions can only come /after/ we think?

24/7 we probably carry out more than 10,000 ‘actions’ per minute without knowing about it, let alone thinking about it. 

There weren’t any brains during the first 3 billion years of our evolution.  Do we sometimes laugh without thinking about it?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S65jqrHQi_c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60o3Aua0rfc

 

 

 
 
Hakuna Matata
 
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Hakuna Matata
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17 November 2020 15:51
 

I wasn’t thinking about involuntary or automatic actions. I was thinking more about when we have to sit down to make a decision or a plan something. But I think I found the answer I was looking for. I saw one of Sam’s podcasts where he tells this meditation teacher that when we are focused on a task, we lose our sense of self. So when we are lost in thought the ‘self’ is not there. The difference after meditating for a long time and reaching this transcendence of the self, is that that when you bring your mind back to focus, that sense of self is still gone. Whereas in normal people, we believe there’s a thinker doing the thinking.

He also says that thoughts are not the enemy. Everything we see around us is a product of thought. We wouldn’t have developed our tecnhology without them. That’s what he says and I believe it makes sense.

Thank you all. I will check the links!

 
unRheal
 
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unRheal
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02 January 2021 04:41
 

One if the couple of things I don’t get about Sam’s rational reasoning on the subject (All IMHO, of course) is that the idea could upset or even terrify people… as if.. you learned a reasonable and fairly convincing theory someone has and… the world didn’t change (any more than any given moment or time span) The Universe is more or less what it was before and after you learned about any theory, hypothesis, fact, or whatever. (Facts being limited to the only one true one we all know and only about ourselves… and of Course some Math stuff seems to be as factual, but not in the same way as the rest of the theories that most call knowledge. Same universe and you weren’t terrified then…

Then there’s the other thing about so many talking like this or that are facts, and, as per above we know so very little of facts, and even if you include all the generally accepted theories.. the same people suggesting the theories are, in majority it seems.. telling us that the oh so very little we know about the Universe so far is actually just like 5%(10?) of the whole shebang, and we haven’t got a clue what the stuff they cleverly called Dark… because what do you call something that you can’t see but know nothing about except it exerts forces that only stuff we can detect other ways should exert..? It’s the “We have no clue” name.

Sam’s no free will hypothesis (that seems like 80-90% of his fans talk like it’s fact.. but can be slightly forgiven as he does the same.

The one thing in it he says that doesn’t quite add up to me is a) you got no free will. b) you should still “choose” to do the right stuff. If the choice really does infinitely regress,

He says it does and sounds reasonable at first..

Hakuna Matata: “it would be much easier to be an animal.” unless you’re abused, in a 3rd world Country on the edge of starvation until you die of it, or get to be that lucky goat or whatever for the feast where they believe it makes the meat taste better if you beat, whip, and torture the animal before killing it. Or those poor 100 Huskies they got for the last Vancouver, BC, Canada winter Olympics when it was over some complete inhumane monster told the guy taking care of the gorgeous dogs to just go slit all their throats. THAT person is broken, and may have damaged for life the guy he told to do it.. last I heard was Lots of counseling… coulda trivially sold each for $500 and they’d be gone in days, nevermind just give them away.. I sure woulda refused, called him as I see him and called the news and spca everywhere I could think of.

and Skipshot.. at the end of Hi School, a buddy and I went to the local bar and played darts.. 2-6 hrs 3-7 days a week. After a couple years.. sometimes, when I threw the dart (couple dozen times maybe) just as I was swinging, before letting go, it was like almost like the board moved right up to where the dart was when I was gonna let go. Not exactly, but to the point that while I couldn’t do 3 double bullseye even when it happened.. I did know *exactly* where the dart would go, being so much like the board, dart and me were just right there and it just couldn’t go anywhere else because it was like letting go with the board 4 inches away.. sorta.

I really did look for somehow, somewhere, someone, to teach or learn to meditate from before end of HS. (1983ish) Books, cassettes, TM (of course?) what a ripoff.Pick a mantra (course it won’t be the “special” one they pick for you, like that matters, pick some sanscrit(?) word you like. and just sit there and repeat it in you head over and over) There you just got the whole TM course that some paid thousands for!

But trying whatever i could find.. when I first heard Sam, doing his app.. it was almost immediately noticeably different. Things he said made sense. Stuff clicked. It was the first one in the 3.5 decades of looking and trying.. that I was able to continue for more than a couple/few weeks max. Even that thing about Lying(/truth) one day after a heavy night of drinking (back when I never got hangovers) I got up and after a minute or few, I had this *brilliant* idea. I thought.. if everybody in the whole world just stopped lying, the world will be amazingly better! I was excited and amazed at how simple and effective it would seem to be.. felt great for a couple of hours before the dang logic side of my brane woke up and disassembled the idea over 5 or so minutes.. But it was great while I was deluded!  wink

I’ve probably written it elsewhere so won’t bore you with the screwed up life I had (like 2 of my first 5 memories were 1 - meeting my new step-brother and 2 step sisters, Spawn of the woman my dad just married. and another in the first few more was literally being tried to drown, I “think” by my step-brother. Probably woulda gone down if the pool was 2 feet wider as I barely clawed the edge before I couldn’t not take a huge breath.. of water if I hadn’t snagged the edge, but only half a cup or so anyway.. my step-brother had gotten to the far end of the pool, and his mom was probably 15-20 feet away from the pool, took a couple small steps and super creepy smile saying “See! You’re learning how to swim!” Never been in anything but a bathtub, or close to a pool.. I was so fascinated by the deep blue water of the deep end which was why I was standing there staring at it.. for a few seconds.

I had to have been 3 or barely 4, but even then I was pretty friggin sure an adult could tell the difference between a child thrashing for his live and one with even the slightest clue about water. Even a 10 min lesson on treading water would have made all the difference in the world. And she wasn’t remotely close to even try and reach a hand out. Nadda. Her Son-spawn spent the next 6 or so years reinforcing how much he hated me and thought I wasn’t worth living. And those first 5 years of learning to socialize are apparently critical, not just for social skills, but since I had nobody Else I could even *try* to talk to, younger, older, male, female.. and might have tried to talk to him once or twice, but quickly learned that not having his attention was far better.. because he’d be incessantly demeaning, degrading, making sure I knew I wasn’t worth living, and was just a retarted moronic idiot, etc, etc.. not a single nice word in all the 6 or so years I lived with him.

So depressed, and suicidal as soon as I could be, until I saw Sam, and he interviewed a number of brilliant (aren’t they pretty much all, but..) top AI programmers (started prog. in ‘78 and started AI courses in ‘86.. Sam, the app, the top AI guys gave me an idea that I pieced together as best I can , over and over.. I think I can write the AI. When Sam interview some he said stuff about how serious and potentially dangerous it might be.. but I don’t think he knows enough specifics to realize that of all the billion dollar AI budget groups, companies, and countries.. I’m racing them with my #15,000 budget (if I save for about 5 more months).. I don’t think he has even close to the real, staggering power that the 1st one to write a real one will have. I’ve tried to contact him dozens of times, even offered a few hundred bucks for a 10-15 min phone chat.. but that’s spare change fir him, and a chunk for me..

I’ve also had nobody to talk to about stuff I’m interested in for over 15 years. But with my shattered social skills, depression, and suicidal tenancies… hard to find people. (a few months after listening to Sam, then his app, then also Lex.. I completely dropped suicidal, and depression got noticeably better than the dozens of meds they’ve fed me over the decades. (that’d technically be infinitely better as none of the drugs helped enough for me to notice at all. As in nadda.

Anyone on Vancouver, BC, Canada wanna chat more about (I’ll try this board more, but time is precious and very limited.. I never really knew time could be precious like this until things changed a few years ago) Quantum Phys/Mech/QED.. layman, will work up from Calculus and stuff as time permits.. computers, and of course programming from Commodore PET (save files to cassette tape), Apple][+ assembly (6502) prob my fav ever.. few years later people couldn’t calculate multiprocessing assm like compilers can. and a dozen or 2 others.. IBM Mainfram asm, maybe worst..lunatic designers) worse than COBOL, IMHO… Lisp.. that was totally fun while I played with it.

Even if I *can* write The AI.. the race against so many Billionaires, millionaires,etc, vs my $12k-$15k hopefully in 5 months or sooner! Time!

My chances of coming in 1st (no 2nd place) are small.. but I want to make the world better for anyone into the tech… you think the billionaires have that as a goal? Capitalism… What is the Main purpose of a company, despite any insistence they’re doing it for you.. companies are for making money, bottom line. Easy call. Otherwise they’d be called “non-profits” at the very least.

Oh.. one last thing about the meditation/transcendence, etc… how does one work up from the 20 minutes.. and even 30, 45, and 60’a to like 4 hrs a day, or enough to prepare oneself for a 5 day retreat…and finding a reputable teacher in Vancouver (another thing can’t ask Sam) would be awesome too if anyone has advice.. and is still even reading..  wink

Was going to try and touch all the posts in thread, but I’ll stop babbling and/or boring you for now. 

I may be socially broken, but I’m friendly.. msg any time (if you can her?) no worries!

Andrew

Wish me luck, because your life to will be incredibly better, if you wish… If I win the race.
Cheers

 
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