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Have human beings evolved/devolved socially? 

 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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18 February 2021 15:52
 
deodand - 18 February 2021 03:13 PM

burt

I agree that the co-opting of patriotism by Trumpism is a problem, and I’d point out this problem has been created largely by liberals, elite or otherwise, abandoning patriotism, on one hand, and outright denigrating America, on the other. For example, if I recall not once did Obama wear the American flag on his lapel, even though he was the President for eight years. 

It remains to be seen if leaders like McConnell can wrest it from Trump, or if Biden will even try.

Also, the idea that racism is in our DNA and that the founding ideals of equality and opportunity were, and remain, a pretext for white supremacy is a case in point. It’s as anti-patriotic as they come.  The story is neither true nor inspiring, and people, as a rule, like to be inspired.  It’ is not a coincidence that Trump’s campaign slogan was “Make America Great Again,” a patriotic message of hope and aspiration.

I agree we have to give up the illusions of our patriotic myths (I assume you mean this by “idealism,” a word I’d prefer to keep) without sacrificing their energizing potential.  As dumb as he is Trump at least recognized the value of this energizing potential over the dismissal or otherwise outright denigration coming from the left, particularly from those who practice identity politics.

See you next time around…

The founders of our nation did engage in very literal white supremacy.  They encoded the status of black Americans into laws and enslaved them.  I’m not sure how more clear of an example of white supremacy there could possibly be.  I also don’t see how a society that engages in slavery could possibly be considered “free”.  Since… slavery is literally the opposite of freedom.

 
PermieMan
 
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PermieMan
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18 February 2021 15:55
 

Using a baby stroller as a grocery shopping cart doesn’t matter.  But then again on a community level, ya it does.  It does matter when there are normal shooting carts to use along with everyone else.

 
 
deodand
 
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deodand
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18 February 2021 16:11
 

I bet you and Barack are a hoot on your anniversaries.

Honey, any wife beating scum bag can remember to get his wife a card.  You should be more concerned with what is in my heart.  I show my love for you by being true to our vows, and by being good to you every day.  So don’t you see, I show more love for you by not getting the card because I believe in the true meaning of marriage.

Like I said, obviously, why not do both?  Like a good husband, so the President should.

 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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18 February 2021 17:03
 
deodand - 18 February 2021 04:11 PM

I bet you and Barack are a hoot on your anniversaries.

Honey, any wife beating scum bag can remember to get his wife a card.  You should be more concerned with what is in my heart.  I show my love for you by being true to our vows, and by being good to you every day.  So don’t you see, I show more love for you by not getting the card because I believe in the true meaning of marriage.

What a lovely straw-man you’ve created here to bolster your appeal to emotion. Along with a personal attack. And bringing my wife into it. Tres classy, my dude.  Stay classy, San Diego.

There seems to be some ‘opportunities for evolution’ shining through this mess.

[ Edited: 18 February 2021 17:07 by Jefe]
 
 
burt
 
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burt
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18 February 2021 21:51
 
deodand - 18 February 2021 03:13 PM

burt

I agree that the co-opting of patriotism by Trumpism is a problem, and I’d point out this problem has been created largely by liberals, elite or otherwise, abandoning patriotism, on one hand, and outright denigrating America, on the other. For example, if I recall not once did Obama wear the American flag on his lapel, even though he was the President for eight years. 

It remains to be seen if leaders like McConnell can wrest it from Trump, or if Biden will even try.

Also, the idea that racism is in our DNA and that the founding ideals of equality and opportunity were, and remain, a pretext for white supremacy is a case in point. It’s as anti-patriotic as they come.  The story is neither true nor inspiring, and people, as a rule, like to be inspired.  It’ is not a coincidence that Trump’s campaign slogan was “Make America Great Again,” a patriotic message of hope and aspiration.

I agree we have to give up the illusions of our patriotic myths (I assume you mean this by “idealism,” a word I’d prefer to keep) without sacrificing their energizing potential.  As dumb as he is Trump at least recognized the value of this energizing potential over the dismissal or otherwise outright denigration coming from the left, particularly from those who practice identity politics.

See you next time around…

Actually, Obama did wear that pin, although he was hammered for not doing so during the 2008 campaign. 

But you do have a point, I wouldn’t say it’s the fault of the liberals, exactly. Back in 1997 I saw the film Starship Trooper. It flopped at the box office, but I got a great kick out of it, and also a speculative idea. The film (assuming you haven’t seen it, it’s a bit of a cult classic now) describes an interstellar war between humans and giant bugs. The society depicted has strong fascist overtones without any of the prejudice. One could call it a fascist meritocracy. The reason, I suspect, that it flopped. But what it did put on display are certain behaviors and virtues that, because of recent history, became associated with fascism and so became discredited. Later the Soviets and Chinese communists did the same thing, discrediting certain behaviors and virtues that were associated with socialism.

 
burt
 
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burt
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18 February 2021 21:51
 
deodand - 18 February 2021 03:13 PM

burt

I agree that the co-opting of patriotism by Trumpism is a problem, and I’d point out this problem has been created largely by liberals, elite or otherwise, abandoning patriotism, on one hand, and outright denigrating America, on the other. For example, if I recall not once did Obama wear the American flag on his lapel, even though he was the President for eight years. 

It remains to be seen if leaders like McConnell can wrest it from Trump, or if Biden will even try.

Also, the idea that racism is in our DNA and that the founding ideals of equality and opportunity were, and remain, a pretext for white supremacy is a case in point. It’s as anti-patriotic as they come.  The story is neither true nor inspiring, and people, as a rule, like to be inspired.  It’ is not a coincidence that Trump’s campaign slogan was “Make America Great Again,” a patriotic message of hope and aspiration.

I agree we have to give up the illusions of our patriotic myths (I assume you mean this by “idealism,” a word I’d prefer to keep) without sacrificing their energizing potential.  As dumb as he is Trump at least recognized the value of this energizing potential over the dismissal or otherwise outright denigration coming from the left, particularly from those who practice identity politics.

See you next time around…

Actually, Obama did wear that pin, although he was hammered for not doing so during the 2008 campaign. 

But you do have a point, I wouldn’t say it’s the fault of the liberals, exactly. Back in 1997 I saw the film Starship Trooper. It flopped at the box office, but I got a great kick out of it, and also a speculative idea. The film (assuming you haven’t seen it, it’s a bit of a cult classic now) describes an interstellar war between humans and giant bugs. The society depicted has strong fascist overtones without any of the prejudice. One could call it a fascist meritocracy. The reason, I suspect, that it flopped. But what it did put on display are certain behaviors and virtues that, because of recent history, became associated with fascism and so became discredited. Later the Soviets and Chinese communists did the same thing, discrediting certain behaviors and virtues that were associated with socialism.

 
Poldano
 
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Poldano
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19 February 2021 02:31
 

I dislike wearing symbols of affiliation with identity groups if I can avoid them, most of the time. I will make exceptions, like for work-related stuff that is supposed to help build team spirit, just to show that I’m not a total cynic; who knows, maybe it actually does help build team spirit?

The problem I have with patriotic displays is that, sometimes, the U.S. gets things horribly wrong, and I don’t want to be mistaken for somebody who agrees with it all the time every time. Moreover, there’s something somewhat implicitly disingenuous with “wearing your religion on your sleeve.” Overt display of symbols of affiliation are usually the first thing done to mask disloyalty. When people display them, I often feel that they are trying too hard to convince or reassure other people of their affiliations and their intentions.

It’s possible that Obama was trying to straddle the fence between Black supporters of his who had expressed skepticism about U.S. loyalty to or concern for Blacks after the start of the Iraq War, and acceptance by the majority. He may also have been trying to avoid being seen as a fetishistic patriot, which more liberal prospective supporters would be turned off by. To illustrate my point, how many people here really believe Donald Trump cared more about the U.S. than himself, just because he wore a de rigeur flag pin?

 
 
Poldano
 
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19 February 2021 02:34
 
deodand - 18 February 2021 06:14 AM

According to the SPLC and the FBI, white supremacist type groups and anti-black hate crimes have been on the decline for the last decade, and an example of this is the mere 200 people the year-long planned “Unite the Right” rally drew in Charlottesville, and the mere 35 for the follow up anniversary event in DC, the next year.  The appearance otherwise is the attention “white supremacy” gets in the media as a [sic] rising threat, when instead there was a brief period of fragmentation into smaller groups, followed by a sharp decline in the number of groups.

Liberal elites would be those college educated liberals in a position to make a big difference in other people’s lives, as opposed to working class, high school educated liberals just getting by for themselves and their families.  A journalist or human resource officer would be an example of a liberal elite; an HVAC worker an example of a working-class liberal.  I certainly don’t see how “liberal elite” is redundant, any more than conservative elite would be, since there are relative divisions of “elite” and “non-elite” among both parties, and in society generally.

The sense of “left behind” refers to the changing economic fortunes and cultural emphasis re people with less education and different values.  College is now considered a necessary stepping stone to a good job as the economy shifts more and more to ‘human capital’ services, as opposed to manufacturing and manual labor.  While high school educated working class whites can still get by, they don’t have the opportunities they used to, and the cultural emphasis is more and more ‘leaving them behind’ as well.  Without going into a whole thread about it, the cultural values of the people who live between the coasts are quite different in many ways than those who live on them.  Those in between have a distinct sense of being “left behind,” and they resent this (I’m not implying real progress here, just change).

In any case, there is far more to voting for Trump than resentment.  This trope is how he won in 2016, and how he got so many votes in 2020.  The liberal elites still don’t understand his appeal because they are too busy denigrating those who support him, because of who he is.

This thread has been engaging and fruitful, but it seems to be fizzling out.  I’ll leave the last comments to you.  Duties call.

I suppose most people would consider me a member of the liberal elite. For most of my life, I felt I was a college educated working stiff struggling to get by. I certainly don’t have the opportunity to make a big difference in other people’s lives, apart from my immediate family and (once upon a time) co-workers. I brought up the evident redundancy of the term “liberal elites” because I see the term being used more often than either of the words separately, particularly in political contexts. This is a sign to me of stereotyping for rhetorical purposes, possibly scapegoating and reinforcement of a public persona in opposition to the identity attributes of the stereotype.

Those who feel like they’ve been “left behind” had ample warning that this time would come. I distinctly recall being strongly pressured toward a college education by my parents because that was supposed to be the surest way of becoming economically successful and far more reliable than factory work. For that reason, I’m hesitant to be too conciliatory toward those who blew off the advice and partied through their 20’s and 30’s. On the other hand, I observe that competent people without college educations do not get the respect I believe they deserve. I’m somewhat attracted to the notion that the emphasis on college education was politically-motivated propaganda intended to reduce unemployment among the first wave of baby boomers who might otherwise have saturated the workforce. Whatever the reason, the emphasis was there and the disdain for those not college-educated probably stems from the baby boomers’ coming-of-age era.

[ Edited: 19 February 2021 02:52 by Poldano]
 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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19 February 2021 13:12
 

Clinton, and democrats like him, definitely left working-class people behind.  They created fig leaves of programs that sounded like they should solve problems, but don’t actually solve anything.

On the flip side, republicans have only made getting government assistance harder (unless your rich) and passed tax cuts for the rich.  Cutting taxes is great if you have a lot of money.  If you lose your job though… a tax cut is meaningless.

 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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21 February 2021 11:43
 
deodand - 18 February 2021 03:13 PM

burt

I agree that the co-opting of patriotism by Trumpism is a problem, and I’d point out this problem has been created largely by liberals, elite or otherwise, abandoning patriotism, on one hand, and outright denigrating America, on the other. For example, if I recall not once did Obama wear the American flag on his lapel, even though he was the President for eight years.

It’s amazing how easy some of your bullshit is to check.

If you’re too lazy to open the link.  It shows a picture of Obama delivering the State of the Union speech.  Want to guess what he’s wearing?

Edit: legit, every year of his presidency that I image searched… I ONLY found pictures of him wearing flag lapel pins… except for ones where he’s not wearing a suit jacket, or has something over the suit (like when giving a commencement speech).  I understand he gave an interview in 2007… before his presidency, but the evidence during his presidency immediately refutes your claim.

[ Edited: 21 February 2021 12:18 by weird buffalo]
 
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