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Why the push for not requiring voter ID ? 

 
acvm
 
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acvm
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26 April 2021 18:33
 

Possible reasons why voter ID would be bad:

- ‘Minorities’ don’t have voter ID so this is an attempt to get ‘minorities’ to vote less. And how ‘minorities’ vote mostly Democrat it’s an attempt to get less Democrat votes.
- Since there were claims of widespread election fraud, passing laws making voting more secure would imply that there might have been widespread voter fraud.

My Q is:
- Does anyone actually think that there are many people out there that would say: “Darn, I would go vote, but I don’t have an ID”. I would ballpark that this would be <0.001% of the population - probably even less then the actual instances of actual fraud. Do ppl believe this is a widespread thing ?
- Is requiring ID really unreasonable for voting ?
- What do you think is the actual reason for pushing back so hard on requiring voter ID ?
- If there should be no ID check for voting, should there be ID check for buying a gun ?

[ Edited: 26 April 2021 19:08 by acvm]
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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26 April 2021 19:00
 
acvm - 26 April 2021 06:33 PM

- Does anyone actually think that there are many people out there that would say: “Darn, I would go vote, but I don’t have an ID”. I would ballpark that this would be <0.001% of the population - probably even less then the actual instances of actual fraud. Do ppl believe this is a widespread thing ?

If approved id is required to vote, then no one without it can vote.  The question answers itself.

acvm - 26 April 2021 06:33 PM

- Is requiring ID really unreasonable for voting ?

It is classist and in some ways racist. Many folks who live in or on the edge of poverty don’t have drivers’ licences or passports.  If voter id includes forms of free id that is pretty easy to obtain, than there shouldn’t be a problem.  In some states, voter id doesn’t include ‘free’ id that some poor folks have access to.  In some states, obtaining ‘for pay’ id that can be used for voting can only be done during weekday bankers hours - which excludes a lot of working class folks from being able to take time off work to go get id.  Especially for those whose employers don’t allow personal days or time off for administrative functions.  In those states, for an impoverished person who can’t take time off work, the ‘for pay’ ‘voter eligible’ ids are a barrier to voting - because they can’t afford the extra expense, can’t afford the double-hit on missed shifts to line up at an id distributor, and so they get excluded by ‘inconvenience’. 

It also affects those elderly who don’t have easy access to transportation.  In some states, the locations to get ‘voter approved id’ are not wide-spread, so the person needing the id (to vote) might have difficulty even getting to such a location via public transportation.  This also applies to voting. If polling places are hard to get to via public transit, it becomes extra difficult for folks to get out to even vote - even if they have approved id.

Voting is a ‘right’ in the US.  But easily accessible free id that permits voting is not a right, and some politicians recognize that more votes might mean different party swings in power.

This is also part of the Georgia situation - where voting is being made unduly difficult for some demographics due to polling place locations and id laws that don’t include free and readily available ids.

acvm - 26 April 2021 06:33 PM

- What do you think is the actual reason for pushing back so hard on requiring voter ID ?

See above. The question would be moot if free voter ids were easy to obtain, and if voting locations were numerous and easy to get to for the working poor who have extra-rigid time constraints.  It would also be useful (and freeing) if election day were a payed holiday from work for many people.  Then those vulnerable folks wouldn’t have to worry about missed shifts/pay.

[ Edited: 26 April 2021 19:12 by Jefe]
 
 
acvm
 
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acvm
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26 April 2021 19:14
 
Jefe - 26 April 2021 07:00 PM

if voting locations were numerous and easy to get to for the working poor who have extra-rigid time constraints.

So I am asking only about voter ID - specifically when you go in person to vote should you have ID. It’s my understanding that this is controversial just by itself.

Jefe - 26 April 2021 07:00 PM

The question would be moot if free voter ids were easy to obtain.

Then why are you the only one who I have heard saying that ? If Biden, Coca Cola and everyone criticizing voter ID would say “Requiring voter IDs without giving out free IDs is unfair” then everyone would be on the same page I would think.

For example Georgia has free IDs but it’s still being criticized for requiring ID ... so don’t think you are correct in your assessment.

 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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26 April 2021 19:18
 

There are reasonable arguments for and against requiring voter ID. But the position taken on the issue by any given Democrat or Republican has nothing to do with those reasonable arguments. Instead, it’s based 100% on the assumption (possibly correct, possibly not) that requiring voter ID would be bad for the Democratic party and good for the Republican party.

Is there any doubt that if the assumption were reversed, and it was thought that the Democrats would benefit from voter ID requirements, that people in both parties would switch their positions? While pretending (and likely even believing) that they arrived at their respective positions through careful, objective scrutiny of the aforementioned reasonable arguments?

 
 
Jefe
 
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26 April 2021 19:21
 
acvm - 26 April 2021 07:14 PM

For example Georgia has free IDs but it’s still being criticized for requiring ID ... so don’t think you are correct in your assessment.

Georgia (along with several other voter id states) has a lot of limitations on how one can get a voter id.
If the person wishing to obtain voter id doesn’t have a pre-existing approved id, then they can’t actually get a free voter id.
All of the requisite pre-existing ids are neither free, nor easy to obtain if one doesn’t already have them.

My assessment is on point.

From the ACLU site:

Millions of Americans Lack ID. 11% of U.S. citizens – or more than 21 million Americans – do not have government-issued photo identification.

Obtaining ID Costs Money. Even if ID is offered for free, voters must incur numerous costs (such as paying for birth certificates) to apply for a government-issued ID.

Underlying documents required to obtain ID cost money, a significant expense for lower-income Americans. The combined cost of document fees, travel expenses and waiting time are estimated to range from $75 to $175.

The travel required is often a major burden on people with disabilities, the elderly, or those in rural areas without access to a car or public transportation. In Texas, some people in rural areas must travel approximately 170 miles to reach the nearest ID office.

Voter ID Laws Reduce Voter Turnout. A 2014 GAO study found that strict photo ID laws reduce turnout by 2-3 percentage points,4 which can translate into tens of thousands of votes lost in a single state.

—-

acvm - 26 April 2021 07:14 PM
Jefe - 26 April 2021 07:00 PM

The question would be moot if free voter ids were easy to obtain.

Then why are you the only one who I have heard saying that ? If Biden, Coca Cola and everyone criticizing voter ID would say “Requiring voter IDs without giving out free IDs is unfair” then everyone would be on the same page I would think.

I’m not the only one saying this. 

I can’t speak for Biden, or Coke or other companies, or ‘everyone criticizing voter ids’ but if you expand your inputs, you’ll see that, like the ACLU, the major criticism of voter id is that it unfairly impacts americans with limited means, mobility, or both.  And since voting is a constitutionally protected right, artificial barriers to voting should not be permitted.

[ Edited: 26 April 2021 19:38 by Jefe]
 
 
acvm
 
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26 April 2021 19:34
 
Jefe - 26 April 2021 07:21 PM

Georgia (along with several other voter id states) has a lot of limitations on how one can get a voter id.
If the person wishing to obtain voter id doesn’t have a pre-existing approved id, then they can’t actually get a free voter id.
All of the requisite pre-existing ids are neither free, nor easy to obtain if one doesn’t already have them.

My assessment is on point.

Yes, it is “on point” but it is not part of the conversation that is taking place.
Maybe I missed all the critics of voter ID saying “Voter ID can only exist if it is easy and free to get”. But you are the only one saying this.
The specific question here is not about what actually makes sense but why the people that are pushing for it are doing the pushing. And the people are just not using your logic or saying that they would agree to voter ID if it was free and easy to get.

 
Jefe
 
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26 April 2021 19:37
 
acvm - 26 April 2021 07:34 PM
Jefe - 26 April 2021 07:21 PM

Georgia (along with several other voter id states) has a lot of limitations on how one can get a voter id.
If the person wishing to obtain voter id doesn’t have a pre-existing approved id, then they can’t actually get a free voter id.
All of the requisite pre-existing ids are neither free, nor easy to obtain if one doesn’t already have them.

My assessment is on point.

Yes, it is “on point” but it is not part of the conversation that is taking place.
Maybe I missed all the critics of voter ID saying “Voter ID can only exist if it is easy and free to get”. But you are the only one saying this.
The specific question here is not about what actually makes sense but why the people that are pushing for it are doing the pushing. And the people are just not using your logic or saying that they would agree to voter ID if it was free and easy to get.

See my edit above.  My assessment is a major component of the ACLU position on voter id.

 

 
 
Jefe
 
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26 April 2021 19:42
 

https://ballotpedia.org/Arguments_for_and_against_voter_identification_laws

Ballotpedia lists a lot of the arguments for and against voter id requirements.  You could do worse than starting there.

 
 
acvm
 
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26 April 2021 19:51
 
Jefe - 26 April 2021 07:21 PM

I can’t speak for Biden, or Coke or other companies, or ‘everyone criticizing voter ids’ but if you expand your inputs, you’ll see that, like the ACLU, the major criticism of voter id is that it unfairly impacts americans with limited means, mobility, or both.

But isn’t the president quite a significant voice ? Perhaps you can show me other major politicians that have expressed your view ( voter ID is OK if it’s free and easy to get ).

Also looking at ACLU it doesn’t seem they would ever be OK with voter ID’s - since they require underlying documents and you have to go in person somewhere.
https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet

OK, let me try rephrase the question a bit:
- Why is there such a push against voter ID for voting when there is no push for requiring voter id for buying guns, getting prescription meds, driving a car, etc ...
I would think that any reasonable person would first be worried about inability to get prescription meds or driving before being worried about voting.
Am I wrong ? Would a nonpartisan reasonable person think that voting is the scenario that demands all attention while driving doesn’t really matter that much ?

Jefe - 26 April 2021 07:42 PM

https://ballotpedia.org/Arguments_for_and_against_voter_identification_laws

Ballotpedia lists a lot of the arguments for and against voter id requirements.  You could do worse than starting there.

Thanks, really useful.

 
Jefe
 
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26 April 2021 19:59
 
acvm - 26 April 2021 07:51 PM

- Why is there such a push against voter ID for voting when there is no push for requiring voter id for buying guns, getting prescription meds, driving a car, etc ...

Voting is a constitutionally protected right for all citizens.  Barriers to constitutional rights should not be permitted.
Making voter id’s free and easy to obtain removes the ‘barrier’ from the equation.

I would argue that many of the recently enacted voter id rights are orchestrated to change ‘swings’ from the last election.
In Alabama, for example, they both introduced new voter id laws, and the closed many DMV’s where such id could be obtained in areas with predominantly black populace.  That should speak volumes about the intent of these new laws/closures.

The GOP is historically known for manipulation of votes and voters.  An argument could be made that if more people did vote, the GOP would receive fewer election wins.  That is exactly what happened in Georgia in the last federal election.  And it pissed off the GOP mightily.

[ Edited: 26 April 2021 20:07 by Jefe]
 
 
acvm
 
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26 April 2021 20:29
 
Jefe - 26 April 2021 07:59 PM

Voting is a constitutionally protected right for all citizens.  Barriers to constitutional rights should not be permitted.

It depends what you mean by ‘barriers’. Reasonable barriers shouldn’t be allowed.
Exercising your 2nd amendment requires photo ID, a background check and restrictions on the type of guns you can buy ( no full auto ).

Jefe - 26 April 2021 07:59 PM

In Alabama, for example, they both introduced new voter id laws, and the closed many DMV’s where such id could be obtained in areas with predominantly black populace.  That should speak volumes about the intent of these new laws/closures.

Are you seriously suggesting that there were legislators in Alabama that said : “Hey everyone, republicans only won the last election 62% to 35%, clearly we must get less black ppl to vote - how about we add voter ID requirements and close DMVs in black areas “.
Do we know what is the official story behind the DMV closures ? Did the legislators somehow manage to get away with no evidence as to their plan ? Did no one try to investigate ?

 
Jefe
 
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26 April 2021 20:46
 

These are all good questions from which you could base your own research.

This opinion piece suggests racially motivated politics:

https://www.al.com/opinion/2017/01/as_it_turns_out_bentleys_drive.html

Bentley (Governor - R) claimed budget shortfalls.
The legal fees from suits filed after the change likely ate through any real savings…

[ Edited: 26 April 2021 20:54 by Jefe]
 
 
acvm
 
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26 April 2021 21:18
 
Jefe - 26 April 2021 08:46 PM

This opinion piece suggests racially motivated politics:
https://www.al.com/opinion/2017/01/as_it_turns_out_bentleys_drive.html

TBH I have no idea what is up with that article.

The #1 thing I would expect to find in there is what is the official explanation for choosing which offices to close. They claim it’s because racism but don’t provide the official explanation or say that officials refuse to provide an explanation. I’m probably a terrible journalist but even I know that that is the first question that you would want to ask.

Also, why would you write an article about impact on voting of not having a DMV office instead of ... you know .. not being able to drive around in rural Alabama where you almost certainly need a driver’s license to survive.

 
Jefe
 
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26 April 2021 21:43
 

Just ask why the bulk of communities targeted for closure were predominantly black.  You may find an answer.  It might not be the best answer, but it is an answer.

 
 
acvm
 
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26 April 2021 22:58
 
Jefe - 26 April 2021 09:43 PM

Just ask why the bulk of communities targeted for closure were predominantly black.  You may find an answer.  It might not be the best answer, but it is an answer.

That’s a leading question though - that’s not journalism. Without asking the key question that article is terribly written at best and propaganda at worse.
Even following basic logic - if it is true that black people are less likely to have ID then that means that they’re less likely to go to the DMV to get one and / or pay renewal fees. If you’re going to shut down DMV offices the only responsible thing to do is to shut down those that are generating least revenue / serving fewer people.
Since black people are the ones least utilizing their DMVs then their offices are the ones that are going to get shut down.

Of course this is only speculation and doesn’t take into account geographics. But we shouldn’t have to be doing this speculation, I actually googled and nobody is asking the most obvious question of all - how did they decide which offices to close.

 
Twissel
 
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27 April 2021 00:01
 

before you are trying to fix a problem, maybe check that you have one?

fraud that could be prevented through ID is utterly insignificant in the US.


In 2020, we saw many, many cases of voting fraud (perpetrated by Republicans), none of which ID laws would solve ... because Republicans want to be able to continue cheating.

[ Edited: 27 April 2021 01:47 by Twissel]
 
 
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