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Why the push for not requiring voter ID ? 

 
Skipshot
 
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Skipshot
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30 April 2021 19:26
 

There is no evidence of voter fraud, which makes the reason to create the laws moot and those who support the laws with claims of fraud are liars blowing dog whistles.  It really is that simple.  Dodging the obvious fact of no evidence for voter fraud and questioning opposition to the laws is another kind of lie.

 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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30 April 2021 21:07
 
Skipshot - 30 April 2021 07:26 PM

There is no evidence of voter fraud, which makes the reason to create the laws moot and those who support the laws with claims of fraud are liars blowing dog whistles.  It really is that simple.  Dodging the obvious fact of no evidence for voter fraud and questioning opposition to the laws is another kind of lie.

You still haven’t addressed the issue that half the country doesn’t believe we can have free and fair elections without voter ID laws—your smug assertion notwithstanding. If nothing else, voter ID laws put those concerns, or complaints if you will, to rest.

 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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01 May 2021 03:52
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 30 April 2021 09:07 PM
Skipshot - 30 April 2021 07:26 PM

There is no evidence of voter fraud, which makes the reason to create the laws moot and those who support the laws with claims of fraud are liars blowing dog whistles.  It really is that simple.  Dodging the obvious fact of no evidence for voter fraud and questioning opposition to the laws is another kind of lie.

You still haven’t addressed the issue that half the country doesn’t believe we can have free and fair elections without voter ID laws—your smug assertion notwithstanding. If nothing else, voter ID laws put those concerns, or complaints if you will, to rest.


these only became issues for the voters once they started to lose their majority - so, fair elections where never the issue.
Therefore, measures to make elections fairer are not what these voters want - they want voter suppression to get their control back.

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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01 May 2021 06:46
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 30 April 2021 09:07 PM
Skipshot - 30 April 2021 07:26 PM

There is no evidence of voter fraud, which makes the reason to create the laws moot and those who support the laws with claims of fraud are liars blowing dog whistles.  It really is that simple.  Dodging the obvious fact of no evidence for voter fraud and questioning opposition to the laws is another kind of lie.

You still haven’t addressed the issue that half the country doesn’t believe we can have free and fair elections without voter ID laws—your smug assertion notwithstanding. If nothing else, voter ID laws put those concerns, or complaints if you will, to rest.

You realize that you’re adopting the post-modern stance you accuse others of.  It doesn’t matter what is actually true to you in this… you only care about what people perceive to be true.  You are insisting that the truth cannot be a solution to this problem.

 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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01 May 2021 11:52
 

Why let trivialities like evidence, facts and truth stand in the way of a self-righteous hissy-fit?

[ Edited: 01 May 2021 12:20 by Jefe]
 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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02 May 2021 09:05
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 30 April 2021 09:07 PM
Skipshot - 30 April 2021 07:26 PM

There is no evidence of voter fraud, which makes the reason to create the laws moot and those who support the laws with claims of fraud are liars blowing dog whistles.  It really is that simple.  Dodging the obvious fact of no evidence for voter fraud and questioning opposition to the laws is another kind of lie.

You still haven’t addressed the issue that half the country doesn’t believe we can have free and fair elections without voter ID laws—your smug assertion notwithstanding. If nothing else, voter ID laws put those concerns, or complaints if you will, to rest.

Half the country doesn’t believe we can have free and fair elections with voter ID laws making it difficult to vote.  Since the voter ID laws (AKA voter suppression laws) don’t make elections more free and fair but in actuality have the opposite effect, wouldn’t it be better not to have them?

 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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02 May 2021 10:34
 
lynmc - 02 May 2021 09:05 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 30 April 2021 09:07 PM
Skipshot - 30 April 2021 07:26 PM

There is no evidence of voter fraud, which makes the reason to create the laws moot and those who support the laws with claims of fraud are liars blowing dog whistles.  It really is that simple.  Dodging the obvious fact of no evidence for voter fraud and questioning opposition to the laws is another kind of lie.

You still haven’t addressed the issue that half the country doesn’t believe we can have free and fair elections without voter ID laws—your smug assertion notwithstanding. If nothing else, voter ID laws put those concerns, or complaints if you will, to rest.

Half the country doesn’t believe we can have free and fair elections with voter ID laws making it difficult to vote.  Since the voter ID laws (AKA voter suppression laws) don’t make elections more free and fair but in actuality have the opposite effect, wouldn’t it be better not to have them?

No, it’s not necessarily true that “voter ID laws (AKA voter suppression laws) don’t make elections more free and fair but in actuality have the opposite effect.” Despite what your party and your media wants you to believe. I posted a link to the State of Georgia website that outlines how to “easily” obtain free ID that meets the voter ID requirement. What specific requirement would you say is so onerous that it rises to the level of “voter suppression?”

The State of Georgia offers a free ID Card. An ID Card can be issued at any county registrar’s office free of charge.
    To receive a voter identification card at the county registrar’s office, the voter must provide:
      A photo identity document or approved non-photo identity document that includes full legal name and date of birth.
      Documentation showing the voter’s date of birth.
      Evidence that the applicant is a registered voter.
      Documentation showing the applicant’s name and residential address.

Jefe has taken the position that he’s only opposed to voter ID “If there are barriers, at any level of id procurement, that prevent some from obtaining id.” I suspect he might quibble with his counterparts over whether any given requirement constitutes a “barrier,” but in principle that’s a perfectly reasonable position that undermines my claim that he was only against voter ID because of his political affiliation. So I’ll ask you: hypothetically, if there were “no barriers, at any level of id procurement, that prevented some from obtaining id,” would you still be against voter ID?

 

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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02 May 2021 10:49
 
weird buffalo - 01 May 2021 06:46 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 30 April 2021 09:07 PM
Skipshot - 30 April 2021 07:26 PM

There is no evidence of voter fraud, which makes the reason to create the laws moot and those who support the laws with claims of fraud are liars blowing dog whistles.  It really is that simple.  Dodging the obvious fact of no evidence for voter fraud and questioning opposition to the laws is another kind of lie.

You still haven’t addressed the issue that half the country doesn’t believe we can have free and fair elections without voter ID laws—your smug assertion notwithstanding. If nothing else, voter ID laws put those concerns, or complaints if you will, to rest.

You realize that you’re adopting the post-modern stance you accuse others of.  It doesn’t matter what is actually true to you in this… you only care about what people perceive to be true.  You are insisting that the truth cannot be a solution to this problem.

Almost, but not quite. The postmodernist view is that objective truths are unobtainable. I say the truth is obtainable: not requiring voter ID isn’t causing voter fraud at any significant level; AND, requiring voter ID doesn’t necessarily lead to voter suppression. Each side has managed to “obtain” exactly half the truth.

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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02 May 2021 11:05
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 02 May 2021 10:49 AM
weird buffalo - 01 May 2021 06:46 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 30 April 2021 09:07 PM
Skipshot - 30 April 2021 07:26 PM

There is no evidence of voter fraud, which makes the reason to create the laws moot and those who support the laws with claims of fraud are liars blowing dog whistles.  It really is that simple.  Dodging the obvious fact of no evidence for voter fraud and questioning opposition to the laws is another kind of lie.

You still haven’t addressed the issue that half the country doesn’t believe we can have free and fair elections without voter ID laws—your smug assertion notwithstanding. If nothing else, voter ID laws put those concerns, or complaints if you will, to rest.

You realize that you’re adopting the post-modern stance you accuse others of.  It doesn’t matter what is actually true to you in this… you only care about what people perceive to be true.  You are insisting that the truth cannot be a solution to this problem.

Almost, but not quite. The postmodernist view is that objective truths are unobtainable. I say the truth is obtainable: not requiring voter ID isn’t causing voter fraud at any significant level; AND, requiring voter ID doesn’t necessarily lead to voter suppression. Each side has managed to “obtain” exactly half the truth.

Millions of Americans who have voted in the past don’t have valid forms of ID in these laws, and so it does create a barrier of entry to voting.  Why should that barrier exist?  Because any barrier will necessarily exclude some people.  What is the value in a democratic system that is excludes numbers of people larger than many distinct voting districts?  Why is that a good thing?

The harder it is to vote, the more politicians get to choose their voters, and thus the less accountable politicians are to the public.  It’s a recipe for increasing corruption.

 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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03 May 2021 06:26
 

important question:

what is the greater violation of the Constitutional Right to Vote?

Diluting someone’s vote by 1/10,000th by having an easy voting system that doesn’t capture a 1 in 10,000 fraudulent vote

OR

Denying every 10,000th voter his Right to Vote because that makes fraudulent voting harder?

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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03 May 2021 07:38
 
Twissel - 03 May 2021 06:26 AM

important question:

what is the greater violation of the Constitutional Right to Vote?

Diluting someone’s vote by 1/10,000th by having an easy voting system that doesn’t capture a 1 in 10,000 fraudulent vote

OR

Denying every 10,000th voter his Right to Vote because that makes fraudulent voting harder?

It’s worse than that, because your ratios are off.

MIT’s study of the problem says that in person voter fraud accounts for 0.00006% of all votes.
The number of people who don’t have ID is about 0.5%.  So, a voter ID law stops 10,000 people from voting in order to stop 1 case of fraud.  And of course, black and hispanic communities are more likely to not have ID.  Since voter ID laws aren’t addressing a real issue (still, no one is citing any evidence of widespread voter fraud) it indicates that the stated reason for these laws is not the actual reason.

Getting struck by lightning is more common than in person voter fraud.

[ Edited: 03 May 2021 07:43 by weird buffalo]
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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03 May 2021 10:17
 
weird buffalo - 03 May 2021 07:38 AM

Since voter ID laws aren’t addressing a real issue (still, no one is citing any evidence of widespread voter fraud) it indicates that the stated reason for these laws is not the actual reason.

This is a common tactic for GOP lawmakers.

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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03 May 2021 12:00
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 02 May 2021 10:34 AM
lynmc - 02 May 2021 09:05 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 30 April 2021 09:07 PM
Skipshot - 30 April 2021 07:26 PM

There is no evidence of voter fraud, which makes the reason to create the laws moot and those who support the laws with claims of fraud are liars blowing dog whistles.  It really is that simple.  Dodging the obvious fact of no evidence for voter fraud and questioning opposition to the laws is another kind of lie.

You still haven’t addressed the issue that half the country doesn’t believe we can have free and fair elections without voter ID laws—your smug assertion notwithstanding. If nothing else, voter ID laws put those concerns, or complaints if you will, to rest.

Half the country doesn’t believe we can have free and fair elections with voter ID laws making it difficult to vote.  Since the voter ID laws (AKA voter suppression laws) don’t make elections more free and fair but in actuality have the opposite effect, wouldn’t it be better not to have them?

No, it’s not necessarily true that “voter ID laws (AKA voter suppression laws) don’t make elections more free and fair but in actuality have the opposite effect.” Despite what your party and your media wants you to believe. I posted a link to the State of Georgia website that outlines how to “easily” obtain free ID that meets the voter ID requirement. What specific requirement would you say is so onerous that it rises to the level of “voter suppression?”

The State of Georgia offers a free ID Card. An ID Card can be issued at any county registrar’s office free of charge.
    To receive a voter identification card at the county registrar’s office, the voter must provide:
      A photo identity document or approved non-photo identity document that includes full legal name and date of birth.
      Documentation showing the voter’s date of birth.
      Evidence that the applicant is a registered voter.
      Documentation showing the applicant’s name and residential address.

That’s four documents a applicant must have.  And if you don’t have those documents, they can be hard to obtain, in particular approved identity document and documentation showing of date of birth.

[ Edited: 03 May 2021 13:58 by lynmc]
 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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05 May 2021 10:33
 
Twissel - 01 May 2021 03:52 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 30 April 2021 09:07 PM
Skipshot - 30 April 2021 07:26 PM

There is no evidence of voter fraud, which makes the reason to create the laws moot and those who support the laws with claims of fraud are liars blowing dog whistles.  It really is that simple.  Dodging the obvious fact of no evidence for voter fraud and questioning opposition to the laws is another kind of lie.

You still haven’t addressed the issue that half the country doesn’t believe we can have free and fair elections without voter ID laws—your smug assertion notwithstanding. If nothing else, voter ID laws put those concerns, or complaints if you will, to rest.


these only became issues for the voters once they started to lose their majority - so, fair elections where never the issue.
Therefore, measures to make elections fairer are not what these voters want - they want voter suppression to get their control back.

Republicans and the Big Lie.  What is emanating from Mar-a-Lago is the new priority of the Republican Party - how to prevent and discourage people of color from voting in 2022 and subsequent elections

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/04/opinion/gop-trump-2020-election.html 

quote from this article:

“We are not OK. America’s democracy is still in real danger. In fact, we are closer to a political civil war — more than at any other time in our modern history. Today’s seeming political calm is actually resting on a false bottom that we’re at risk of crashing through at any moment.

Because, instead of Trump’s Big Lie fading away, just the opposite is happening — first slowly and now quickly.

Under Trump’s command and control from Mar-a-Largo, and with the complicity of most of his party’s leaders, that Big Lie — that the greatest election in our history, when more Republicans and Democrats voted than ever before, in the midst of a pandemic, must have been rigged because Trump lost — has metastasized. It’s being embraced by a solid majority of elected Republicans and ordinary party members — local, state and national.”  (more in article)

 

[ Edited: 05 May 2021 10:37 by unsmoked]
 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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05 May 2021 11:04
 

Not related to voter id, but I’d posit that the GOP sinks or swims based on voter turn out.

If enough of Gen-NOW votes, the GOP probably doesn’t win, because they (the GOP) have made life successively harder and harder for young folks to get ahead through inflation, generally increased costs of living, class stratification, corporate and ceo favouritism, wealth-redistribution to the top, harder to find jobs, harder to find jobs with good benefits, harder to find secure jobs.  The so-called ‘gig’ economy is just not-so-secret-code for ‘no job security’ or ‘have to have 2 or 3 ‘jobs/gigs’’ to make ends meet.

 
 
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