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Why does Israel treat Palestinians Badly?

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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02 May 2021 10:13
 

A followup to a recent thread about apartheid:

The consensus among the posters here seems to be that Israel is guilty of apartheid practices against Palestinians. (I’m not convinced that’s a meaningful claim, btw.)

So my question to those who believe apartheid is happening is this.. why?

Why is Israel doing this? If you’re correct, why are they being such bad actors? I mean within Israel we see a very diverse culture, diverse religions, very progressive when it comes to women’s rights and opportunities and so on.

Why the blindspot when it comes to Palestinians?

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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02 May 2021 11:09
 

I care less and less about people’s motivations for things.  What I care about is the impact their actions have.

It can be somewhat possible to guess at people’s motivations, but if I can’t actually read their mind, I can only judge their actions by their outward appearance.  I am not necessarily a consequentialist, but I find it a fairly utilitarian model.

 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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02 May 2021 11:44
 
icehorse - 02 May 2021 10:13 AM

The consensus among the posters here seems to be that Israel is guilty of apartheid practices against Palestinians. (I’m not convinced that’s a meaningful claim, btw.)

Why do you feel this claim is not meaningful?

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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02 May 2021 11:46
 
weird buffalo - 02 May 2021 11:09 AM

I care less and less about people’s motivations for things.  What I care about is the impact their actions have.

It can be somewhat possible to guess at people’s motivations, but if I can’t actually read their mind, I can only judge their actions by their outward appearance.  I am not necessarily a consequentialist, but I find it a fairly utilitarian model.

Well you ought to look into motivation science, motivation drives humans.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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02 May 2021 11:48
 
Jefe - 02 May 2021 11:44 AM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 10:13 AM

The consensus among the posters here seems to be that Israel is guilty of apartheid practices against Palestinians. (I’m not convinced that’s a meaningful claim, btw.)

Why do you feel this claim is not meaningful?

Didn’t we bludgeon this topic in the apartheid thread? The only reason I added that parenthetical sentence in the OP was as a reference back to the other thread, I just didn’t want anyone thinking I’d thrown in the towel on the apartheid debate, I just wanted to move to another facet of the question in this thread.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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02 May 2021 11:54
 
icehorse - 02 May 2021 11:48 AM
Jefe - 02 May 2021 11:44 AM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 10:13 AM

The consensus among the posters here seems to be that Israel is guilty of apartheid practices against Palestinians. (I’m not convinced that’s a meaningful claim, btw.)

Why do you feel this claim is not meaningful?

Didn’t we bludgeon this topic in the apartheid thread? The only reason I added that parenthetical sentence in the OP was as a reference back to the other thread, I just didn’t want anyone thinking I’d thrown in the towel on the apartheid debate, I just wanted to move to another facet of the question in this thread.

I feel the question is relevant to discussion of this topic and would like clarification.
Why don’t we start with what you feel are differences between the institutionalized discrimination and HRVs against Palestinians (per Amnesty International) and apartheid?

[ Edited: 02 May 2021 11:58 by Jefe]
 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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02 May 2021 12:02
 
Jefe - 02 May 2021 11:54 AM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 11:48 AM
Jefe - 02 May 2021 11:44 AM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 10:13 AM

The consensus among the posters here seems to be that Israel is guilty of apartheid practices against Palestinians. (I’m not convinced that’s a meaningful claim, btw.)

Why do you feel this claim is not meaningful?

Didn’t we bludgeon this topic in the apartheid thread? The only reason I added that parenthetical sentence in the OP was as a reference back to the other thread, I just didn’t want anyone thinking I’d thrown in the towel on the apartheid debate, I just wanted to move to another facet of the question in this thread.

I feel the question is relevant to discussion of this topic and would like clarification.
Why don’t we start with what you feel are differences between the institutionalized discrimination and HRVs against Palestinians (per Amnesty International) and apartheid?

Because I think we have to consider the behaviors of both sides, and the broader context. For example, we assassinated Bin Laden. Was that us committing apartheid?

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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02 May 2021 12:04
 
icehorse - 02 May 2021 12:02 PM
Jefe - 02 May 2021 11:54 AM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 11:48 AM
Jefe - 02 May 2021 11:44 AM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 10:13 AM

The consensus among the posters here seems to be that Israel is guilty of apartheid practices against Palestinians. (I’m not convinced that’s a meaningful claim, btw.)

Why do you feel this claim is not meaningful?

Didn’t we bludgeon this topic in the apartheid thread? The only reason I added that parenthetical sentence in the OP was as a reference back to the other thread, I just didn’t want anyone thinking I’d thrown in the towel on the apartheid debate, I just wanted to move to another facet of the question in this thread.

I feel the question is relevant to discussion of this topic and would like clarification.
Why don’t we start with what you feel are differences between the institutionalized discrimination and HRVs against Palestinians (per Amnesty International) and apartheid?

Because I think we have to consider the behaviors of both sides, and the broader context. For example, we assassinated Bin Laden. Was that us committing apartheid?

Lets remain focused on israel and palestine.  Please answer the question.

Edit: and to answer your question: apartheid is, by definition, a political system of segregation and discrimination.  I don’t think the bin laden assassination quite fits under that umbrella.

[ Edited: 02 May 2021 12:06 by Jefe]
 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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02 May 2021 12:06
 
Jefe - 02 May 2021 12:04 PM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 12:02 PM
Jefe - 02 May 2021 11:54 AM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 11:48 AM
Jefe - 02 May 2021 11:44 AM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 10:13 AM

The consensus among the posters here seems to be that Israel is guilty of apartheid practices against Palestinians. (I’m not convinced that’s a meaningful claim, btw.)

Why do you feel this claim is not meaningful?

Didn’t we bludgeon this topic in the apartheid thread? The only reason I added that parenthetical sentence in the OP was as a reference back to the other thread, I just didn’t want anyone thinking I’d thrown in the towel on the apartheid debate, I just wanted to move to another facet of the question in this thread.

I feel the question is relevant to discussion of this topic and would like clarification.
Why don’t we start with what you feel are differences between the institutionalized discrimination and HRVs against Palestinians (per Amnesty International) and apartheid?

Because I think we have to consider the behaviors of both sides, and the broader context. For example, we assassinated Bin Laden. Was that us committing apartheid?

Lets remain focused on israel and palestine.  Please answer the question.

And I believe that bringing the larger context into the discussion is relevant.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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02 May 2021 12:09
 
icehorse - 02 May 2021 12:06 PM
Jefe - 02 May 2021 12:04 PM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 12:02 PM
Jefe - 02 May 2021 11:54 AM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 11:48 AM
Jefe - 02 May 2021 11:44 AM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 10:13 AM

The consensus among the posters here seems to be that Israel is guilty of apartheid practices against Palestinians. (I’m not convinced that’s a meaningful claim, btw.)

Why do you feel this claim is not meaningful?

Didn’t we bludgeon this topic in the apartheid thread? The only reason I added that parenthetical sentence in the OP was as a reference back to the other thread, I just didn’t want anyone thinking I’d thrown in the towel on the apartheid debate, I just wanted to move to another facet of the question in this thread.

I feel the question is relevant to discussion of this topic and would like clarification.
Why don’t we start with what you feel are differences between the institutionalized discrimination and HRVs against Palestinians (per Amnesty International) and apartheid?

Because I think we have to consider the behaviors of both sides, and the broader context. For example, we assassinated Bin Laden. Was that us committing apartheid?

Lets remain focused on israel and palestine.  Please answer the question.

And I believe that bringing the larger context into the discussion is relevant.

Ok. See my edit above.  Please comment on the context I’ve asked you about.

Here’s some larger context from Amnesty International:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

ISRAEL AND OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES 2020
Israel continued to impose institutionalized discrimination against Palestinians living under its rule in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT). It displaced hundreds of Palestinians in Israel and the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as a result of home demolitions and imposition of other coercive measures. Israeli forces continued to use excessive force during law enforcement activities in Israel and the OPT. Israeli forces killed 31 Palestinians, including nine children, in the OPT; many were unlawfully killed while posing no imminent threat to life. Israel maintained its illegal blockade on the Gaza Strip, subjecting its residents to collective punishment and deepening the humanitarian crisis there. It also continued to restrict freedom of movement of Palestinians in the OPT through checkpoints and roadblocks. The Israeli authorities arbitrarily detained in Israel thousands of Palestinians from the OPT, holding hundreds in administrative detention without charge or trial. Torture and other ill-treatment of detainees, including children, were committed with impunity. The authorities used a range of measures to target human rights defenders, journalists and others who criticized Israel’s continuing occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Syrian Golan Heights. Violence against women persisted, especially against Palestinian citizens of Israel. The authorities denied asylum-seekers access to a fair or prompt refugee status determination process. Conscientious objectors to military service were imprisoned.

*** Special emphasis added re: violence against women - in response to your comment in the op about progressiveness toward women.

icehorse - 02 May 2021 10:13 AM

...very progressive when it comes to women’s rights and opportunities and so on.

Edit:

icehorse - 02 May 2021 10:13 AM

So my question to those who believe apartheid is happening is this.. why?

Because the actions they are taking overlaps a great deal with, and bears striking and parallel resemblance to apartheid.

[ Edited: 02 May 2021 12:21 by Jefe]
 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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02 May 2021 12:40
 

I believe that anyone who is claiming apartheid, has too narrow a focus. You think your context is correct, I think it’s too narrow. I’m happy to agree to disagree on that point. I will agree however that - given your context - claims of apartheid have merit.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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02 May 2021 12:44
 
icehorse - 02 May 2021 12:40 PM

I believe that anyone who is claiming apartheid, has too narrow a focus. You think your context is correct, I think it’s too narrow. I’m happy to agree to disagree on that point. I will agree however that - given your context - claims of apartheid have merit.

So what aperture of focus would you start with?

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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02 May 2021 12:53
 
Jefe - 02 May 2021 12:44 PM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 12:40 PM

I believe that anyone who is claiming apartheid, has too narrow a focus. You think your context is correct, I think it’s too narrow. I’m happy to agree to disagree on that point. I will agree however that - given your context - claims of apartheid have merit.

So what aperture of focus would you start with?

I don’t claim to have the solution for a problem that’s stymied the world for decades. That said, I do think that the focus has always been too narrow.

I would probably start about 100 years ago. I’d look at what tribes lived where at that point, and compare that to who lives where now. I don’t know why the world has concluded that only Israel should have skin in the “give Palestinians a homeland” game. Why shouldn’t Jordan and Egypt be a part of the solution? And why is so much of the focus on the Palestinian tribe? While we’re at it we should see about a homeland for the Kurds, the Yazidis, perhaps the coptics, and probably others as well. And we should also be honest about Islamic conquest in the region. Even with the WB, Israel represents only about 2% of the area of the ME. The implication is that Islamists cannot cope with giving Jews 2%. Why do we imagine that 2% is too much, but 1.95% would be acceptable to the Islamists? That seems exceedingly naive.

There’s more, but that’s a start.

==

So back to the OP, why do you apartheid claimers think Israel is such a bad actor in this regard?

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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02 May 2021 13:35
 
icehorse - 02 May 2021 12:53 PM
Jefe - 02 May 2021 12:44 PM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 12:40 PM

I believe that anyone who is claiming apartheid, has too narrow a focus. You think your context is correct, I think it’s too narrow. I’m happy to agree to disagree on that point. I will agree however that - given your context - claims of apartheid have merit.

So what aperture of focus would you start with?

I don’t claim to have the solution for a problem that’s stymied the world for decades. That said, I do think that the focus has always been too narrow.

I would probably start about 100 years ago. I’d look at what tribes lived where at that point, and compare that to who lives where now. I don’t know why the world has concluded that only Israel should have skin in the “give Palestinians a homeland” game. Why shouldn’t Jordan and Egypt be a part of the solution? And why is so much of the focus on the Palestinian tribe? While we’re at it we should see about a homeland for the Kurds, the Yazidis, perhaps the coptics, and probably others as well. And we should also be honest about Islamic conquest in the region. Even with the WB, Israel represents only about 2% of the area of the ME. The implication is that Islamists cannot cope with giving Jews 2%. Why do we imagine that 2% is too much, but 1.95% would be acceptable to the Islamists? That seems exceedingly naive.

There’s more, but that’s a start.

==

So back to the OP, why do you apartheid claimers think Israel is such a bad actor in this regard?

Alrighty. That answer is helpful.  I’m going to think about it a bit.  Not walking away or anything, but I just want to put in the effort.

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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02 May 2021 14:11
 
icehorse - 02 May 2021 12:53 PM
Jefe - 02 May 2021 12:44 PM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 12:40 PM

I believe that anyone who is claiming apartheid, has too narrow a focus. You think your context is correct, I think it’s too narrow. I’m happy to agree to disagree on that point. I will agree however that - given your context - claims of apartheid have merit.

So what aperture of focus would you start with?

I don’t claim to have the solution for a problem that’s stymied the world for decades. That said, I do think that the focus has always been too narrow.

I would probably start about 100 years ago. I’d look at what tribes lived where at that point, and compare that to who lives where now. I don’t know why the world has concluded that only Israel should have skin in the “give Palestinians a homeland” game. Why shouldn’t Jordan and Egypt be a part of the solution? And why is so much of the focus on the Palestinian tribe? While we’re at it we should see about a homeland for the Kurds, the Yazidis, perhaps the coptics, and probably others as well. And we should also be honest about Islamic conquest in the region. Even with the WB, Israel represents only about 2% of the area of the ME. The implication is that Islamists cannot cope with giving Jews 2%. Why do we imagine that 2% is too much, but 1.95% would be acceptable to the Islamists? That seems exceedingly naive.

There’s more, but that’s a start.

==

So back to the OP, why do you apartheid claimers think Israel is such a bad actor in this regard?

Zionists took that 2% at gunpoint.  If someone takes $20 from me at gunpoint, I’d think they’re criminal even though it represents far less than 2% of my wealth.  It represented most of the wealth of the Palestinians.

You seem to think third parties should be responsible for the crimes of the actual mass murderers, ethnic cleansers, and serial human rights violators.  Why can’t some place like Germany or Russia give some good chunk of their territory to the Jews?  After all, they were the main victimizers of Jews in recent history. The fact that they haven’t, does this imply it’s not acceptable to the Christians?  Under Ottoman rule, approximately 100 years ago, Jews had equal rights.  Why require “Islamists,” who for hundreds of years previously had done relatively little to harm “the Jews” and had on occasion offered refuge when Jews were being persecuted in Europe, to “give away” their land?  Why do you think Palestinians have no right to keep their homes, farms, businesses and property?

 

 

[ Edited: 02 May 2021 14:16 by lynmc]
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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02 May 2021 14:24
 

lyn:

Zionists took that 2% at gunpoint.  If someone takes $20 from me at gunpoint, I’d think they’re criminal even though it represents far less than 2% of my wealth.  It represented most of the wealth of the Palestinians

I think you’ll find that if you go back to around the time of the Balfour declaration, that what you said here isn’t accurate.

What I would say is that the Brits did a truly reprehensible job of carving up the Ottoman empire.

 

 
 
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