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Why does Israel treat Palestinians Badly?

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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02 May 2021 14:26
 

lyn:

Why do you think Palestinians have no right to keep their homes, farms, businesses and property?

Why do you think that Palestinians existed only in Israel?

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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02 May 2021 15:57
 
icehorse - 02 May 2021 02:26 PM

lyn:

Why do you think Palestinians have no right to keep their homes, farms, businesses and property?

Why do you think that Palestinians existed only in Israel?

I don’t, and the question irrelevant as to whether they have a right to their homes, farms, businesses and property.  Israel has denied them the right to their homes, farms, businesses and property within all of historic Palestine, especially those parts of historic Palestine inside Israel.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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02 May 2021 16:11
 
lynmc - 02 May 2021 03:57 PM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 02:26 PM

lyn:

Why do you think Palestinians have no right to keep their homes, farms, businesses and property?

Why do you think that Palestinians existed only in Israel?

I don’t, and the question irrelevant as to whether they have a right to their homes, farms, businesses and property.  Israel has denied them the right to their homes, farms, businesses and property within all of historic Palestine, especially those parts of historic Palestine inside Israel.

I would say that Jordan and Egypt certainly, and SA, Lebanon and Syria possibly, have done the same thing. Since Palestinians existed in all (or most of), those other countries, why shouldn’t they offer some of their land to help establish a Palestinian homeland?

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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02 May 2021 16:28
 
icehorse - 02 May 2021 02:24 PM

lyn:

Zionists took that 2% at gunpoint.  If someone takes $20 from me at gunpoint, I’d think they’re criminal even though it represents far less than 2% of my wealth.  It represented most of the wealth of the Palestinians

I think you’ll find that if you go back to around the time of the Balfour declaration, that what you said here isn’t accurate.

What I would say is that the Brits did a truly reprehensible job of carving up the Ottoman empire.

 

Most of the wealth was taken by Zionists/Israel by force of arms in 1948 and after, which was decades after the Balfour declaration. Whether one is talking about national territory or individual personal wealth, Palestine was taken from its inhabitants by force of arms.  The national territory was taken mainly of the British who did so without regard to the wishes of the inhabitants, backing the Zionist project. The personal property and wealth was taken from Palestine’s non-Jewish citizens by the Zionists by means of mass murder and terror.

Are you saying that “giving 2%” of the ME territory to the Jews for a Jewish state also grants that Jewish state the “right” to expel most of the Muslims and Christians and take their homes and property, at gunpoint, for Jewish-only use?  FYI it isn’t just “Islamists” who object, and it appears that you are arguing that denial of the right to live in a Jewish state on the basis of creed is acceptable.

 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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02 May 2021 16:40
 
icehorse - 02 May 2021 04:11 PM
lynmc - 02 May 2021 03:57 PM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 02:26 PM

lyn:

Why do you think Palestinians have no right to keep their homes, farms, businesses and property?

Why do you think that Palestinians existed only in Israel?

I don’t, and the question irrelevant as to whether they have a right to their homes, farms, businesses and property.  Israel has denied them the right to their homes, farms, businesses and property within all of historic Palestine, especially those parts of historic Palestine inside Israel.

I would say that Jordan and Egypt certainly, and SA, Lebanon and Syria possibly, have done the same thing. Since Palestinians existed in all (or most of), those other countries, why shouldn’t they offer some of their land to help establish a Palestinian homeland?

When did Egypt, SA, Lebanon or Syria deny Palestinians the right to their homes, farms, and property to which they had legal title?

Since Kurds, Tibetans and Uighur exist in the United States, why doesn’t the U.S. offer some of its land to form Kurdish, Tibetan and Uighur homelands?  As there are Palestinians inside Israel besides besides which historically that’s where most of them originated, why shouldn’t Israel give some or all of its territory to establish a Palestinian homeland?  Since Jews existed in Britain, France, Germany, Poland and Russia, why shouldn’t those countries offer some of their land to establish a Jewish homeland?

 

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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02 May 2021 17:16
 

lyn:

Most of the wealth was taken by Zionists/Israel by force of arms in 1948 and after, which was decades after the Balfour declaration. Whether one is talking about national territory or individual personal wealth, Palestine was taken from its inhabitants by force of arms.  The national territory was taken mainly of the British who did so without regard to the wishes of the inhabitants, backing the Zionist project. The personal property and wealth was taken from Palestine’s non-Jewish citizens by the Zionists by means of mass murder and terror.

What you’re accusing Israel of you also - more or less - have to accuse Jordan of, and to a lesser degree the other countries I mentioned earlier. Look man, the Zionists did some shitty stuff, no doubt. But they aren’t the only ones who have treated the Palestinians badly, why should they be the only ones to make things right?

lyn:

Are you saying that “giving 2%” of the ME territory to the Jews for a Jewish state also grants that Jewish state the “right” to expel most of the Muslims and Christians and take their homes and property, at gunpoint, for Jewish-only use?  FYI it isn’t just “Islamists” who object, and it appears that you are arguing that denial of the right to live in a Jewish state on the basis of creed is acceptable.

As I’m sure you’re well aware, Israel is BY FAR the most culturally and religiously diverse country in the ME.

Let me ask you this (for what, maybe the fifth time?), why are there 4TH GENERATION Palestinian REFUGEES in Jordanian refugee camps? Is that an example of how guilt-free Jordan is in this mess?

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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02 May 2021 17:38
 
icehorse - 02 May 2021 11:46 AM
weird buffalo - 02 May 2021 11:09 AM

I care less and less about people’s motivations for things.  What I care about is the impact their actions have.

It can be somewhat possible to guess at people’s motivations, but if I can’t actually read their mind, I can only judge their actions by their outward appearance.  I am not necessarily a consequentialist, but I find it a fairly utilitarian model.

Well you ought to look into motivation science, motivation drives humans.

I think you missed the part where I don’t care.  I’m not researching something I don’t care about.

 
icehorse
 
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02 May 2021 17:54
 
weird buffalo - 02 May 2021 05:38 PM
icehorse - 02 May 2021 11:46 AM
weird buffalo - 02 May 2021 11:09 AM

I care less and less about people’s motivations for things.  What I care about is the impact their actions have.

It can be somewhat possible to guess at people’s motivations, but if I can’t actually read their mind, I can only judge their actions by their outward appearance.  I am not necessarily a consequentialist, but I find it a fairly utilitarian model.

Well you ought to look into motivation science, motivation drives humans.

I think you missed the part where I don’t care.  I’m not researching something I don’t care about.

So basically, you decided not to care about something before you even knew that thing existed.  wink

 
 
lynmc
 
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02 May 2021 20:30
 
icehorse - 02 May 2021 05:16 PM

lyn:

Most of the wealth was taken by Zionists/Israel by force of arms in 1948 and after, which was decades after the Balfour declaration. Whether one is talking about national territory or individual personal wealth, Palestine was taken from its inhabitants by force of arms.  The national territory was taken mainly of the British who did so without regard to the wishes of the inhabitants, backing the Zionist project. The personal property and wealth was taken from Palestine’s non-Jewish citizens by the Zionists by means of mass murder and terror.

What you’re accusing Israel of you also - more or less - have to accuse Jordan of, and to a lesser degree the other countries I mentioned earlier. Look man, the Zionists did some shitty stuff, no doubt. But they aren’t the only ones who have treated the Palestinians badly, why should they be the only ones to make things right?

lyn:

Are you saying that “giving 2%” of the ME territory to the Jews for a Jewish state also grants that Jewish state the “right” to expel most of the Muslims and Christians and take their homes and property, at gunpoint, for Jewish-only use?  FYI it isn’t just “Islamists” who object, and it appears that you are arguing that denial of the right to live in a Jewish state on the basis of creed is acceptable.

As I’m sure you’re well aware, Israel is BY FAR the most culturally and religiously diverse country in the ME.

Let me ask you this (for what, maybe the fifth time?), why are there 4TH GENERATION Palestinian REFUGEES in Jordanian refugee camps? Is that an example of how guilt-free Jordan is in this mess?

You can accuse Jordan of mass terror and murder against innocent civilians in order to create a religiously pure state, but unlike the accusation against Israel it would be a false accusation.  There are 4th generation Palestinians in refugee camps because Israel drove out their forebears in a campaign of terror, mass murder and ethnic cleansing.  Jordan did absolutely nothing to put the refugees in the camps.

As far as how religiously diverse Israel is relative to other ME countries (debatable, there have been minority religions all over the ME since the Muslims took over), you can also argue if you like that the Jim Crow south or apartheid South Africa were racially diverse.  By the same token, you could argue that Medieval, theocratic Europe was religiously diverse, I mean, you had perfectly fine ghettos for the Jews.

 
icehorse
 
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03 May 2021 06:18
 

lyn:

There are 4th generation Palestinians in refugee camps because Israel drove out their forebears in a campaign of terror, mass murder and ethnic cleansing.  Jordan did absolutely nothing to put the refugees in the camps.

Why hasn’t Jordan absorbed these refugees, their fellow Muslims, into their country?

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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03 May 2021 10:14
 

Did some reading.  Learned a few more things. Below is my summary of thought after spending time reading (mostly non-partisan) info.

1) HRVs againt palastinians remain, imo, contemptible and unforgivable
2) Nothing I’ve read excuses or justifies israel’s commission of HRVs against palestinians
3) Extending that,  nothing i’ve read justifies HRVs committed against palestinians by other nations, either, however, that other nations are not welcoming palestinians with open arms and full citizenship still doesn’t excuse israel’s behaviour
4) Home and homeland are concepts that apply to palestinians as well as israeli jews, and to trivialize one set of claims over another is not a helpful position
5) If a One-state solution is unacceptable, then a Two-state solution should be pursued, imo
6) Since there seems to be no real progress in the pursuit of peace, perhaps it is time for a further intervention by the global community to encourage an end to hostilities and the commission of HRVs.  Sanctions, boycotts, political pressuring, etc…  Maybe grownups need to enforce some rules…

And I still don’t have a really good answer for the question: ‘why does isreal treat palestinians so badly?’, other than that they (israelis) are hypocrites - given that their nation was essentially born by fiat (displacing existing palestinians from their homes) as a response to catastrophic discrimination against jews in europe. (Which I acknowledge is a bit of an understatement of the holocaust, but still applies in my view).

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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03 May 2021 10:59
 
icehorse - 03 May 2021 06:18 AM

lyn:

There are 4th generation Palestinians in refugee camps because Israel drove out their forebears in a campaign of terror, mass murder and ethnic cleansing.  Jordan did absolutely nothing to put the refugees in the camps.

Why hasn’t Jordan absorbed these refugees, their fellow Muslims, into their country?

Right, lose one argument, shift to another?  You suggested before that Jordan should give up some of its territory for a Palestinian homeland.  Do you have a good argument for it?  Other than that some Palestinians live there?  Yes, Zionists aren’t known for using facts and logic.  I’ll take both suggestions it for what they are, propaganda points.

Aside from the fact that not all Palestinians are Muslims, implicit in this question is the premise that Muslim states should be required grant citizenship to Muslim refugees, and just Muslim refugees - that it’s acceptable for a group of heretofore religiously diverse states to sort their populations by religion - all the Christians going to one state, all the Jews to another, all the Muslims to some third, all the atheists to a fourth and so on.  Also implicit is that mass murder and terror are acceptable in order to achieve these more pure religious/ethnic states.  If it’s legitimate to achieve a Jewish state by means of mass murder and terror, what’s wrong with the “Islamic state” achieving an Islamic state by means of mass murder and terror?

I don’t buy either premise.  All countries should grant equal rights regardless of creed.  No one should be terrorized into leaving their homes due to their creed.  And if some state actor did it that’s still in existance, they should rectify their crime to the extent possible.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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03 May 2021 20:54
 
Jefe - 03 May 2021 10:14 AM

Did some reading.  Learned a few more things. Below is my summary of thought after spending time reading (mostly non-partisan) info.

1) HRVs againt palastinians remain, imo, contemptible and unforgivable
2) Nothing I’ve read excuses or justifies israel’s commission of HRVs against palestinians
3) Extending that,  nothing i’ve read justifies HRVs committed against palestinians by other nations, either, however, that other nations are not welcoming palestinians with open arms and full citizenship still doesn’t excuse israel’s behaviour
4) Home and homeland are concepts that apply to palestinians as well as israeli jews, and to trivialize one set of claims over another is not a helpful position
5) If a One-state solution is unacceptable, then a Two-state solution should be pursued, imo
6) Since there seems to be no real progress in the pursuit of peace, perhaps it is time for a further intervention by the global community to encourage an end to hostilities and the commission of HRVs.  Sanctions, boycotts, political pressuring, etc…  Maybe grownups need to enforce some rules…

And I still don’t have a really good answer for the question: ‘why does isreal treat palestinians so badly?’, other than that they (israelis) are hypocrites - given that their nation was essentially born by fiat (displacing existing palestinians from their homes) as a response to catastrophic discrimination against jews in europe. (Which I acknowledge is a bit of an understatement of the holocaust, but still applies in my view).

We mostly agree on many of these points.

I think Israel behaves the way they do because they’re the ones facing an existential crisis. And I think this crisis predates the kinds of issues that the pro-Palestinian posters bring up. Their backs are up against the wall like no other of the major players in the region. I’m not excusing their behaviors, but I think that we won’t find a solution until that aspect of the situation is widely accepted.

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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04 May 2021 05:06
 

I have not seen any evidence to suggest Israel is interested in a solution that even accommodates any Palestinian interests.

 
icehorse
 
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04 May 2021 10:27
 
weird buffalo - 04 May 2021 05:06 AM

I have not seen any evidence to suggest Israel is interested in a solution that even accommodates any Palestinian interests.

I’d say that the reality is this: Let’s imagine that Israel completely pulled out of the WB - full stop.

They would STILL be surrounded by countries whose intentions - stated or not - are to completely eliminate Israel from the map.

Since we’re on the Sam Harris forum, perhaps we could agree that religion is the flywheel that’s kept this long standing, Jew vs. Muslim animosity, going for centuries.

 
 
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