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Why does Israel treat Palestinians Badly?

 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
Total Posts:  1920
Joined  19-06-2020
 
 
 
24 May 2021 10:50
 
icehorse - 24 May 2021 10:21 AM
weird buffalo - 24 May 2021 10:07 AM
icehorse - 24 May 2021 07:57 AM
weird buffalo - 24 May 2021 07:21 AM
icehorse - 23 May 2021 07:26 PM

weird:

But when I actually presented evidence for us to examine, Icehorse has since declared his own jihad on details and facts.

And here I thought we were on to something a few posts back. You started asking questions so that we could establish a baseline. What happened with that?

Now let me ask you this, why do you think that your random anecdotal data points somehow prove the intentions of Israel’s leadership? Do you have some special insight into the strategies and tactics they’re discussing in their war rooms? Do you have a special playbook for how to deal with terrorist organizations that have vowed to destroy you and live right on your doorstep? If so, perhaps you ought to book a ticket to the mideast and clear this whole thing up. I would sincerely wish you the best in your endeavor.

And one more thing, over the course of this thread, you’ve left many of my questions unanswered, how about we raise the quality of this discourse a bit?

I’m done with your posts where you complain about the quality of the discourse.  If you want me to answer a question, your post will have to contain zero complaints about the discussion itself.

An amazingly ironic post, made my day smile

That’s because you confuse pointing out flaws in your arguments as attacks on your character.

Go back and look at your posts. You often frame your responses something like “your bullshit”. If you really want to dig into the topic, you might try “I see a logical flaw in that argument”.

If you want to debate this cleanly, I’ll proceed, if not, I’ll bow out.

If all you’re going to do is tone police, then please… leave.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  8814
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
24 May 2021 11:11
 
weird buffalo - 24 May 2021 10:50 AM
icehorse - 24 May 2021 10:21 AM
weird buffalo - 24 May 2021 10:07 AM
icehorse - 24 May 2021 07:57 AM
weird buffalo - 24 May 2021 07:21 AM
icehorse - 23 May 2021 07:26 PM

weird:

But when I actually presented evidence for us to examine, Icehorse has since declared his own jihad on details and facts.

And here I thought we were on to something a few posts back. You started asking questions so that we could establish a baseline. What happened with that?

Now let me ask you this, why do you think that your random anecdotal data points somehow prove the intentions of Israel’s leadership? Do you have some special insight into the strategies and tactics they’re discussing in their war rooms? Do you have a special playbook for how to deal with terrorist organizations that have vowed to destroy you and live right on your doorstep? If so, perhaps you ought to book a ticket to the mideast and clear this whole thing up. I would sincerely wish you the best in your endeavor.

And one more thing, over the course of this thread, you’ve left many of my questions unanswered, how about we raise the quality of this discourse a bit?

I’m done with your posts where you complain about the quality of the discourse.  If you want me to answer a question, your post will have to contain zero complaints about the discussion itself.

An amazingly ironic post, made my day smile

That’s because you confuse pointing out flaws in your arguments as attacks on your character.

Go back and look at your posts. You often frame your responses something like “your bullshit”. If you really want to dig into the topic, you might try “I see a logical flaw in that argument”.

If you want to debate this cleanly, I’ll proceed, if not, I’ll bow out.

If all you’re going to do is tone police, then please… leave.

Let me know when that’s all I’m doing. At this point, there is a lot of evidence to the contrary.

As I said earlier, my policy is to try to debate as cleanly as possible. But if you go low, I’ll punch back. So go find a time when I initiated personal attack.

You keep making me think that you’ve got some interesting perspectives, but then you can’t seem to help but going low. The signal to noise with your posts isn’t great. Why don’t you try just sticking to the points? If that’s “tone policing” so be it, when you go low, you’re not worth my time.

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
Total Posts:  725
Joined  03-08-2014
 
 
 
24 May 2021 11:33
 
icehorse - 24 May 2021 10:25 AM
lynmc - 24 May 2021 09:45 AM
icehorse - 22 May 2021 05:11 PM
lynmc - 22 May 2021 05:06 PM
icehorse - 22 May 2021 04:36 PM
weird buffalo - 22 May 2021 04:31 PM
icehorse - 22 May 2021 03:04 PM
icehorse - 22 May 2021 03:04 PM
weird buffalo - 22 May 2021 02:38 PM
icehorse - 22 May 2021 12:46 PM

I feel that I am responding to exactly what you are saying.  Can I ask some clarifying questions in order to find out where the disconnect is happening?

That would be fantastic, seriously, no snark.

Okay, I want to see what basic facts we agree on.  For example, I consider the reports of the dead children to be most likely true.  There’s significant details verified by sources who are not the PA or Hamas, that seems like a pretty solid fact.  The government and military of Israel being the forces that carried out those bombings are the parties responsible for the their actions (dropping the bombs) which is directly the cause of those children being dead.  Do you disagree with any part of that?  I am not asking if there are additional facts you would like to add, but rather whether we agree on if these facts are true.  If you think any of this is untrue, we can debate that, but I don’t want to debate additional facts at this point (we can do that after we find out if we agree on these points).

so far, so good.

Great.
Is there some information you’d like to add that you think would justify the killing of these children?  Or do you consider it unjustified?

War sucks!!!!  Innocents get killed. Innocents get killed in every war. It sucks.

At least Israel lets Palestinian civilians know ahead of time what targets they’re going to attack. Can you name another country that’s done that during wartime? I don’t think the US has ever done that.

Sometimes Israel gives a warning, sometimes it doesn’t.  In neither case is it acceptable to bomb civilian structures in a territory already under military occupation, in a war of aggression.

Well you know, we disagree on the assumptions you just made.

Which do you think are assumptions?

Sometimes Israel gives a warning, sometimes it doesn’t?  See https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-israel-wiping-entire-palestinian-families-hamas-1.9820005

Israel bombed civilian structures?  See above article

Gaza is already under occupation?  See UN Security Council resolution 1860.

Occupied by Israel in a war of aggression?  See any legitimate history of the 1967 war.

Bombing civilian structures, such as desalinization plants and journalist offices?  See the Hague conventions.

There are mountain sized collections of facts about this situation. Lots of bad things Israel has done. Lots of bad things the Palestinians and their allies have done. For you to trot out a few facts from the mountains available is a detour from the point of this thread. If you want to start a thread to discuss whose stack of facts is bigger, go for it. But THIS thread is about trying to find the underlying motivations.

Great.  There’s a mountain of evidence Israel’s goal is ethnic cleansing (which even you support) and conquest of territory by war, presented in multiple posts, and that’s why it treats the Palestinians badly. 

You’ve posted that Israel’s brutality is motivated by desire for security, but that’s also been refuted by logic and evidence.  First, brutality inspires a violent reaction, taking property and land from people inspires a violent reaction.  So brutality does not lead to security.  You point to the gerrymandered border, but since Israel has built Jewish-only settlements all over the occupied territories, the border is much more “gerrymandered” than when Israel took over.  And above all you point to “context”, citing ISIS attacks on Yazidis in Iraq, more or less 1000 miles away and more than half a century after the main Israeli mass murders and terror against Palestinians.

Logically speaking, there’s nothing about making the border less gerrymandered that requires arresting, torturing, and killing Palestinians, taking their land or evicting them from their homes.  For example, the border could be moved so that there is only one state in historic Palestine, include all the Palestinians as equal citizens and stop the racism and brutality.  But of course the state (whether you call it Israel or Palestine) would no longer be solidly Jewish - so that presents an “existential threat” to the “Jewish” state, it’s Jewish nature would not be “secure”.  Logically the reason Israel treats Palestinians badly is to expand the “Jewish” territory by getting rid of as many Palestinians from as much territory as possible, i.e., ethnic cleansing.

 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
Total Posts:  1920
Joined  19-06-2020
 
 
 
24 May 2021 11:34
 
icehorse - 24 May 2021 11:11 AM
weird buffalo - 24 May 2021 10:50 AM
icehorse - 24 May 2021 10:21 AM
weird buffalo - 24 May 2021 10:07 AM
icehorse - 24 May 2021 07:57 AM
weird buffalo - 24 May 2021 07:21 AM
icehorse - 23 May 2021 07:26 PM

weird:

But when I actually presented evidence for us to examine, Icehorse has since declared his own jihad on details and facts.

And here I thought we were on to something a few posts back. You started asking questions so that we could establish a baseline. What happened with that?

Now let me ask you this, why do you think that your random anecdotal data points somehow prove the intentions of Israel’s leadership? Do you have some special insight into the strategies and tactics they’re discussing in their war rooms? Do you have a special playbook for how to deal with terrorist organizations that have vowed to destroy you and live right on your doorstep? If so, perhaps you ought to book a ticket to the mideast and clear this whole thing up. I would sincerely wish you the best in your endeavor.

And one more thing, over the course of this thread, you’ve left many of my questions unanswered, how about we raise the quality of this discourse a bit?

I’m done with your posts where you complain about the quality of the discourse.  If you want me to answer a question, your post will have to contain zero complaints about the discussion itself.

An amazingly ironic post, made my day smile

That’s because you confuse pointing out flaws in your arguments as attacks on your character.

Go back and look at your posts. You often frame your responses something like “your bullshit”. If you really want to dig into the topic, you might try “I see a logical flaw in that argument”.

If you want to debate this cleanly, I’ll proceed, if not, I’ll bow out.

If all you’re going to do is tone police, then please… leave.

Let me know when that’s all I’m doing. At this point, there is a lot of evidence to the contrary.

As I said earlier, my policy is to try to debate as cleanly as possible. But if you go low, I’ll punch back. So go find a time when I initiated personal attack.

You keep making me think that you’ve got some interesting perspectives, but then you can’t seem to help but going low. The signal to noise with your posts isn’t great. Why don’t you try just sticking to the points? If that’s “tone policing” so be it, when you go low, you’re not worth my time.

Yeah… you trying to police my tone makes me want to continue doing the thing that annoys you.

We can go back to analyzing your bullshit arguments if you like.

 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  8814
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
24 May 2021 11:45
 
weird buffalo - 24 May 2021 11:34 AM
icehorse - 24 May 2021 11:11 AM
weird buffalo - 24 May 2021 10:50 AM
icehorse - 24 May 2021 10:21 AM
weird buffalo - 24 May 2021 10:07 AM
icehorse - 24 May 2021 07:57 AM
weird buffalo - 24 May 2021 07:21 AM
icehorse - 23 May 2021 07:26 PM

weird:

But when I actually presented evidence for us to examine, Icehorse has since declared his own jihad on details and facts.

And here I thought we were on to something a few posts back. You started asking questions so that we could establish a baseline. What happened with that?

Now let me ask you this, why do you think that your random anecdotal data points somehow prove the intentions of Israel’s leadership? Do you have some special insight into the strategies and tactics they’re discussing in their war rooms? Do you have a special playbook for how to deal with terrorist organizations that have vowed to destroy you and live right on your doorstep? If so, perhaps you ought to book a ticket to the mideast and clear this whole thing up. I would sincerely wish you the best in your endeavor.

And one more thing, over the course of this thread, you’ve left many of my questions unanswered, how about we raise the quality of this discourse a bit?

I’m done with your posts where you complain about the quality of the discourse.  If you want me to answer a question, your post will have to contain zero complaints about the discussion itself.

An amazingly ironic post, made my day smile

That’s because you confuse pointing out flaws in your arguments as attacks on your character.

Go back and look at your posts. You often frame your responses something like “your bullshit”. If you really want to dig into the topic, you might try “I see a logical flaw in that argument”.

If you want to debate this cleanly, I’ll proceed, if not, I’ll bow out.

If all you’re going to do is tone police, then please… leave.

Let me know when that’s all I’m doing. At this point, there is a lot of evidence to the contrary.

As I said earlier, my policy is to try to debate as cleanly as possible. But if you go low, I’ll punch back. So go find a time when I initiated personal attack.

You keep making me think that you’ve got some interesting perspectives, but then you can’t seem to help but going low. The signal to noise with your posts isn’t great. Why don’t you try just sticking to the points? If that’s “tone policing” so be it, when you go low, you’re not worth my time.

Yeah… you trying to police my tone makes me want to continue doing the thing that annoys you.

We can go back to analyzing your bullshit arguments if you like.

Have yourself a fine day smile

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  8814
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
24 May 2021 11:45
 

lyn,

have yourself a fine day smile

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
Total Posts:  1920
Joined  19-06-2020
 
 
 
24 May 2021 11:50
 
icehorse - 24 May 2021 11:45 AM

Have yourself a fine day smile

How very passive aggressive of you.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  8814
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
24 May 2021 16:07
 
 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
Total Posts:  1920
Joined  19-06-2020
 
 
 
24 May 2021 17:09
 

I get why you like the article.  He basically makes all the same arguments you do.  Except again… if we critically analyze any of them, they either fall apart or not nearly as conclusive as he suggests.

I’m going to immediately dismiss any argument that relies on describing the killing of 60+ children as “restraint.”

 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
Total Posts:  725
Joined  03-08-2014
 
 
 
27 May 2021 11:17
 
weird buffalo - 24 May 2021 05:09 PM

I get why you like the article.  He basically makes all the same arguments you do.  Except again… if we critically analyze any of them, they either fall apart or not nearly as conclusive as he suggests.

I’m going to immediately dismiss any argument that relies on describing the killing of 60+ children as “restraint.”

Agreed -

Halevi’s argument that Israel should be seen as “reluctant occupiers” is pretty cynical given that it’s built Jewish-only settlements all over the occupied territories.  “Moral high ground” is a hard sell for an apartheid state.  Some of the things he says have a nugget of truth, of course Israel’s enemies would like to see it go away but that ignores the mass murders, attacks and invasions that created the enemies. Olmert did make a peace offer, but it’s false to say Abbas or anyone rejected it out of hand, he made a counter which was apparently returned unopened by Netanyahoo.

 
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