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Human Depravity and Living by Example

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  3741
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
02 June 2021 08:01
 
LadyJane - 02 June 2021 07:20 AM
Jan_CAN - 01 June 2021 10:34 AM

In some respects, the current world is more peaceful than in our past.  But we still have a long way to go and ignoring or dismissing the past is a huge mistake and only continues to hurt the victims of the past (and present) who are still with us, and their descendants.  And in remembering, we must humanize this history with stories and faces, not just facts and numbers.

I also fear that this slow trend towards humanitarianism won’t last.  If in the decades to come climate change causes mass migrations and competition for land and resources, the human trait of selfishness and self-interest might very well supersede our compassion and common sense.

Exactly.  When ideas are bandied about it’s always good to have folks around who can say We tried that already and it was a miserable failure of epic proportions.  Admitting that would save a lot of trouble.  Mass migration is a going concern.  Exacerbated by the rise in xenophobia.  I don’t like to imagine what all the weary travellers are encountering the more they are displaced.  That is where abuses tends to thrive.  Then get glossed over.  And that won’t do.

Like most stories involving mass graves the Kamloops story was like a gut punch.  The worst case scenario of what the sick and twisted do.  Whatever images we sear into our memory can last long after the lowered flags and tiny shoes are gone.  And we learn what it means to have compassion for folks we’ll never know.  From Namibia to Rwanda to Yemen.  I think a little understanding would make for friendlier doorsteps.

Yes, it all comes down to truth and compassion, being able to walk in another’s shoes.

 

 
 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
Total Posts:  2002
Joined  31-10-2015
 
 
 
02 June 2021 08:35
 

LadyJane and Can Jan, We’re on the same page but our focuses differ. Past unfortunate ways of seeing things are entirely worthy of remembering. But current unfortunate ways of seeing things are as different from that as a person with a hangnail is different from someone who needs an ambulance ride to the ER.

I say all this not to undermine the intent of the OP here; only to emphasize how easy it is these days to appear sanctimonious.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
Total Posts:  8000
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
02 June 2021 09:17
 
nonverbal - 02 June 2021 06:15 AM
Jan_CAN - 01 June 2021 02:39 PM
nonverbal - 01 June 2021 01:42 PM

Which social issues are most salient today—past horrific crimes, or current ones that take down our ideals with similar force right this moment? I’m not asking Which crimes are the only ones to notice?, but Which crimes need to be attended to immediately with at least a modicum of patient sacrifice? (The sacrifice being that Americans and many others might end up paying a few more cents per pound for plastic pre-garbage.)

The problem is that past horrific crimes ARE still current in that they have not yet been resolved.  Lies, false histories, dismissal, prejudice, etc., have all seen to it that truth and reconciliation are still only a dream.  As Jefe says, it’s not an either/or proposition – the need to ensure current ethical practises (e.g. trade) is no excuse to ignore the crimes of the past that keep on giving.

Current slavery gets supported by almost everything we in the U.S. purchase. I assume you Canadians contribute to slavery this way, as well, right? We can struggle to end this second-hand slavery rather than continuing to support it. But that’s not happening, is it? In the 21st century, now that we’ve exported our slavery needs, we’re entirely free to display moral indignation regarding our own slavery-infected past because we’ve exported the shame. We’ve become spoiled children who don’t know any better.

Exploitation is a fundamental of capitalism.  And consumerism.
Since the US is basically built on those foundations, then there is definitely a propogation of exploitive economics globally.
As to personal choices in ethical consumerism and the choice to to ‘shop because of boredom’ not every individual supports that exploitation directly.  But there is also a potential crisis in collapsing even exploitive economies if those we seek to assist get the shaft because of massive lay-offs, closures, and reduced exporting.

As long as profit is a primary fiduciary construct, exploitation will be conducted in order to maximize profits for corporations and the elite wealthy.

 
 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
Total Posts:  2002
Joined  31-10-2015
 
 
 
02 June 2021 09:25
 
Jefe - 02 June 2021 09:17 AM
nonverbal - 02 June 2021 06:15 AM
Jan_CAN - 01 June 2021 02:39 PM
nonverbal - 01 June 2021 01:42 PM

Which social issues are most salient today—past horrific crimes, or current ones that take down our ideals with similar force right this moment? I’m not asking Which crimes are the only ones to notice?, but Which crimes need to be attended to immediately with at least a modicum of patient sacrifice? (The sacrifice being that Americans and many others might end up paying a few more cents per pound for plastic pre-garbage.)

The problem is that past horrific crimes ARE still current in that they have not yet been resolved.  Lies, false histories, dismissal, prejudice, etc., have all seen to it that truth and reconciliation are still only a dream.  As Jefe says, it’s not an either/or proposition – the need to ensure current ethical practises (e.g. trade) is no excuse to ignore the crimes of the past that keep on giving.

Current slavery gets supported by almost everything we in the U.S. purchase. I assume you Canadians contribute to slavery this way, as well, right? We can struggle to end this second-hand slavery rather than continuing to support it. But that’s not happening, is it? In the 21st century, now that we’ve exported our slavery needs, we’re entirely free to display moral indignation regarding our own slavery-infected past because we’ve exported the shame. We’ve become spoiled children who don’t know any better.

Exploitation is a fundamental of capitalism.  And consumerism.
Since the US is basically built on those foundations, then there is definitely a propogation of exploitive economics globally.
As to personal choices in ethical consumerism and the choice to to ‘shop because of boredom’ not every individual supports that exploitation directly.  But there is also a potential crisis in collapsing even exploitive economies if those we seek to assist get the shaft because of massive lay-offs, closures, and reduced exporting.

As long as profit is a primary fiduciary construct, exploitation will be conducted in order to maximize profits for corporations and the elite wealthy.

That may all be, but at least we no longer enslave people.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
Total Posts:  8000
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
02 June 2021 09:35
 
nonverbal - 02 June 2021 09:25 AM
Jefe - 02 June 2021 09:17 AM
nonverbal - 02 June 2021 06:15 AM
Jan_CAN - 01 June 2021 02:39 PM
nonverbal - 01 June 2021 01:42 PM

Which social issues are most salient today—past horrific crimes, or current ones that take down our ideals with similar force right this moment? I’m not asking Which crimes are the only ones to notice?, but Which crimes need to be attended to immediately with at least a modicum of patient sacrifice? (The sacrifice being that Americans and many others might end up paying a few more cents per pound for plastic pre-garbage.)

The problem is that past horrific crimes ARE still current in that they have not yet been resolved.  Lies, false histories, dismissal, prejudice, etc., have all seen to it that truth and reconciliation are still only a dream.  As Jefe says, it’s not an either/or proposition – the need to ensure current ethical practises (e.g. trade) is no excuse to ignore the crimes of the past that keep on giving.

Current slavery gets supported by almost everything we in the U.S. purchase. I assume you Canadians contribute to slavery this way, as well, right? We can struggle to end this second-hand slavery rather than continuing to support it. But that’s not happening, is it? In the 21st century, now that we’ve exported our slavery needs, we’re entirely free to display moral indignation regarding our own slavery-infected past because we’ve exported the shame. We’ve become spoiled children who don’t know any better.

Exploitation is a fundamental of capitalism.  And consumerism.
Since the US is basically built on those foundations, then there is definitely a propogation of exploitive economics globally.
As to personal choices in ethical consumerism and the choice to to ‘shop because of boredom’ not every individual supports that exploitation directly.  But there is also a potential crisis in collapsing even exploitive economies if those we seek to assist get the shaft because of massive lay-offs, closures, and reduced exporting.

As long as profit is a primary fiduciary construct, exploitation will be conducted in order to maximize profits for corporations and the elite wealthy.

That may all be, but at least we no longer enslave people.

Yup.  Fully agree that slavery is bad and should be discontinued globally.

 
 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
Total Posts:  2002
Joined  31-10-2015
 
 
 
02 June 2021 09:49
 
Jefe - 02 June 2021 09:35 AM
nonverbal - 02 June 2021 09:25 AM
Jefe - 02 June 2021 09:17 AM
nonverbal - 02 June 2021 06:15 AM
Jan_CAN - 01 June 2021 02:39 PM
nonverbal - 01 June 2021 01:42 PM

Which social issues are most salient today—past horrific crimes, or current ones that take down our ideals with similar force right this moment? I’m not asking Which crimes are the only ones to notice?, but Which crimes need to be attended to immediately with at least a modicum of patient sacrifice? (The sacrifice being that Americans and many others might end up paying a few more cents per pound for plastic pre-garbage.)

The problem is that past horrific crimes ARE still current in that they have not yet been resolved.  Lies, false histories, dismissal, prejudice, etc., have all seen to it that truth and reconciliation are still only a dream.  As Jefe says, it’s not an either/or proposition – the need to ensure current ethical practises (e.g. trade) is no excuse to ignore the crimes of the past that keep on giving.

Current slavery gets supported by almost everything we in the U.S. purchase. I assume you Canadians contribute to slavery this way, as well, right? We can struggle to end this second-hand slavery rather than continuing to support it. But that’s not happening, is it? In the 21st century, now that we’ve exported our slavery needs, we’re entirely free to display moral indignation regarding our own slavery-infected past because we’ve exported the shame. We’ve become spoiled children who don’t know any better.

Exploitation is a fundamental of capitalism.  And consumerism.
Since the US is basically built on those foundations, then there is definitely a propogation of exploitive economics globally.
As to personal choices in ethical consumerism and the choice to to ‘shop because of boredom’ not every individual supports that exploitation directly.  But there is also a potential crisis in collapsing even exploitive economies if those we seek to assist get the shaft because of massive lay-offs, closures, and reduced exporting.

As long as profit is a primary fiduciary construct, exploitation will be conducted in order to maximize profits for corporations and the elite wealthy.

That may all be, but at least we no longer enslave people.

Yup.  Fully agree that slavery is bad and should be discontinued globally.

I take that back. We still enslave people, though indirectly. I mistakenly have it in my head that we no longer enslave people. But those kinds of thoughts are now antiquated. I need to revise my thinking, most unfortunately.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
Total Posts:  8000
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
02 June 2021 09:56
 
nonverbal - 02 June 2021 09:49 AM
Jefe - 02 June 2021 09:35 AM
nonverbal - 02 June 2021 09:25 AM
Jefe - 02 June 2021 09:17 AM
nonverbal - 02 June 2021 06:15 AM
Jan_CAN - 01 June 2021 02:39 PM
nonverbal - 01 June 2021 01:42 PM

Which social issues are most salient today—past horrific crimes, or current ones that take down our ideals with similar force right this moment? I’m not asking Which crimes are the only ones to notice?, but Which crimes need to be attended to immediately with at least a modicum of patient sacrifice? (The sacrifice being that Americans and many others might end up paying a few more cents per pound for plastic pre-garbage.)

The problem is that past horrific crimes ARE still current in that they have not yet been resolved.  Lies, false histories, dismissal, prejudice, etc., have all seen to it that truth and reconciliation are still only a dream.  As Jefe says, it’s not an either/or proposition – the need to ensure current ethical practises (e.g. trade) is no excuse to ignore the crimes of the past that keep on giving.

Current slavery gets supported by almost everything we in the U.S. purchase. I assume you Canadians contribute to slavery this way, as well, right? We can struggle to end this second-hand slavery rather than continuing to support it. But that’s not happening, is it? In the 21st century, now that we’ve exported our slavery needs, we’re entirely free to display moral indignation regarding our own slavery-infected past because we’ve exported the shame. We’ve become spoiled children who don’t know any better.

Exploitation is a fundamental of capitalism.  And consumerism.
Since the US is basically built on those foundations, then there is definitely a propogation of exploitive economics globally.
As to personal choices in ethical consumerism and the choice to to ‘shop because of boredom’ not every individual supports that exploitation directly.  But there is also a potential crisis in collapsing even exploitive economies if those we seek to assist get the shaft because of massive lay-offs, closures, and reduced exporting.

As long as profit is a primary fiduciary construct, exploitation will be conducted in order to maximize profits for corporations and the elite wealthy.

That may all be, but at least we no longer enslave people.

Yup.  Fully agree that slavery is bad and should be discontinued globally.

I take that back. We still enslave people, though indirectly. I mistakenly have it in my head that we no longer enslave people. But those kinds of thoughts are now antiquated. I need to revise my thinking, most unfortunately.

Yup.  Sometimes the unintended consequences of our choice and systems come back to haunt us.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
Total Posts:  3937
Joined  26-03-2013
 
 
 
02 June 2021 11:47
 
nonverbal - 02 June 2021 08:35 AM

We’re on the same page but our focuses differ. Past unfortunate ways of seeing things are entirely worthy of remembering. But current unfortunate ways of seeing things are as different from that as a person with a hangnail is different from someone who needs an ambulance ride to the ER.

I say all this not to undermine the intent of the OP here; only to emphasize how easy it is these days to appear sanctimonious.

The difference is in the perception…the problems are the same.  Triage works well for a reason.  The patient needing the ambulance takes precedence over the one with the hangnail.  It just takes a little organization.  We can delegate as many people as it takes to work on reparations and still have plenty more to tend to the pressing matters we face.

I imagine everything sounds sanctimonious after having a Fascist for a president who has made a career out of deception and a following who’ll do the same.  China is a certain kind of threat.  And so are white supremacists.  Which one do you see as the hangnail?

 
 
EN
 
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EN
Total Posts:  22372
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
02 June 2021 12:31
 

The greatest immediate threat to our democracy are the Trumpian fascists. A few years ago I would never have thought that the danger would truly come from within. Now, it’s here. Trump released a lot of latent depravity.

 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
Total Posts:  8000
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
02 June 2021 14:49
 
EN - 02 June 2021 12:31 PM

The greatest immediate threat to our democracy are the Trumpian fascists. A few years ago I would never have thought that the danger would truly come from within. Now, it’s here. Trump released a lot of latent depravity.

Another looming threat, that coincides and parallels the above, is the use of misleading or misinforming media to politicize issues that should not necessarily be political in nature. And the degradation of education/expertise at the hands of the misleaders…

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  8731
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
03 June 2021 09:01
 
EN - 02 June 2021 12:31 PM

The greatest immediate threat to our democracy are the Trumpian fascists. A few years ago I would never have thought that the danger would truly come from within. Now, it’s here. Trump released a lot of latent depravity.

One trick Icelandic horse alert!

EVERYTHING we’re talking about on this thread is exacerbated by the Oligarchy™. The massive wealth and income inequalities we see today are - among other things - putting much of our population in fear. Orange “leaders” succeed primarily by playing on those fears. If the population was financially secure, most of these issues would be getting solved much faster than they are.

And here’s the thing: Fighting the Oligarchy™ is something we can ALL see eye to eye on. And the Oligarchs™ love it when they see the rest of us infighting.

 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
Total Posts:  1813
Joined  01-11-2014
 
 
 
04 June 2021 21:13
 
icehorse - 03 June 2021 09:01 AM
EN - 02 June 2021 12:31 PM

The greatest immediate threat to our democracy are the Trumpian fascists. A few years ago I would never have thought that the danger would truly come from within. Now, it’s here. Trump released a lot of latent depravity.

One trick Icelandic horse alert!

EVERYTHING we’re talking about on this thread is exacerbated by the Oligarchy™. The massive wealth and income inequalities we see today are - among other things - putting much of our population in fear. Orange “leaders” succeed primarily by playing on those fears. If the population was financially secure, most of these issues would be getting solved much faster than they are.

And here’s the thing: Fighting the Oligarchy™ is something we can ALL see eye to eye on. And the Oligarchs™ love it when they see the rest of us infighting.

I agree that the oligarchy is a huge threat to our democracy, but the threat they pose has lessened in my view — now it’s the Republican party becoming the Christian Fascist party that worries the hell out of me. I wonder if even the oligarchs are concerned about these turn of events?

How good for business and profits can it be for the United States to become a country run by conspiracy kooks, gun nuts, and religious fanatics who pledge undying loyalty to fat, clueless, corrupt, orange clown?

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
Total Posts:  3937
Joined  26-03-2013
 
 
 
08 June 2021 17:37
 

The United Nations lived up to its responsibility today when five judges in The Hague upheld the conviction of Ratko Mladic.

Known as “The Butcher” for his war crimes in Bosnia.

 
 
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