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What brings the universe into being?

 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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18 June 2021 13:02
 

Fenyang said, “Few people believe their inherent mind is Buddha.  Most will not take this seriously, and therefore are cramped.”

Does Fenyang’s meaning become clear if we ask, “What brings the universe into being?”

(Fenyang quoted from the book, ZEN ESSENCE - The Science of Freedom - translated and edited by Thomas Cleary)

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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18 June 2021 13:48
 

You say Christianity is bullshit and fallacy.  I say Zen Buddhism is bullshit and fallacy.

 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
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18 June 2021 14:22
 

Uh oh.

The gauntlet has been thrown down.

The only proper way for gentlemen to settle such a matter is a duel at dawn.

Pistols at twenty paces?

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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18 June 2021 14:42
 
Cheshire Cat - 18 June 2021 02:22 PM

Uh oh.

The gauntlet has been thrown down.

The only proper way for gentlemen to settle such a matter is a duel at dawn.

Pistols at twenty paces?

Or a white glove slap fest.

On topic: before the Big Bang was actually the far future.

 
 
EN
 
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18 June 2021 16:46
 

I have walked 10 paces and here is my shot; Buddha mind is meaningless bullshit, as are all Zen sayings.

 
Cheshire Cat
 
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18 June 2021 17:45
 
Jb8989 - 18 June 2021 02:42 PM

On topic: before the Big Bang was actually the far future.

Admit it — you were high when you wrote that.

Advice for EN:
“If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him!”

 
 
Jb8989
 
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18 June 2021 21:25
 
Cheshire Cat - 18 June 2021 05:45 PM
Jb8989 - 18 June 2021 02:42 PM

On topic: before the Big Bang was actually the far future.

Admit it — you were high when you wrote that.

Advice for EN:
“If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him!”

It’s like dealing with children.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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19 June 2021 09:40
 

The Zen perspectives on detachment and equanimity I find quite useful.

I’m less inclined to look to Zen for insight into cosmology.

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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19 June 2021 10:10
 
icehorse - 19 June 2021 09:40 AM

The Zen perspectives on detachment and equanimity I find quite useful.

I’m less inclined to look to Zen for insight into cosmology.

Similar.  The teachings are useful for self-examination and perspective, but the teachings themselves are not any sort of evidence for anything.  Heck, this idea itself is even present within Zen-buddhism.

“Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise.  Seek what they sought.” - Matsuo Basho

 
unsmoked
 
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19 June 2021 11:21
 
EN - 18 June 2021 04:46 PM

I have walked 10 paces and here is my shot; Buddha mind is meaningless bullshit, as are all Zen sayings.

I especially like your ideas about Trump’s border wall.  I’m going to aim high.  I thought the answer to the OP question was so self-evident you’d get it immediately. 

What brings the universe into being?  Your inherent mind.  Test this when you’re sound asleep.

 
 
EN
 
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19 June 2021 11:48
 

If I substitute “frog” for “Buddha” it makes as much sense.  Few people believe that their inherent mind is Frog. Your Frog mind brings the universe into being, says Master Ribbit.  Meditate on this and you will achieve Frogvana before you croak.

Zen sayings are word salads.  We can agree on Trump, but not on this.  Buddha was a dude, maybe. His mind is gone and is not recoverable.

 
unsmoked
 
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19 June 2021 12:02
 
EN - 19 June 2021 11:48 AM

If I substitute “frog” for “Buddha” it makes as much sense.  Few people believe that their inherent mind is Frog. Your Frog mind brings the universe into being, says Master Ribbit.  Meditate on this and you will achieve Frogvana before you croak.

Zen sayings are word salads.  We can agree on Trump, but not on this.  Buddha was a dude, maybe. His mind is gone and is not recoverable.

Like Christianity, Zen is for those who have affinity.  I thought the answer to the OP question was so self-evident you’d get it immediately.

What brings the universe into being?  Your inherent mind.  Test this when you’re sound asleep.

 

 
 
EN
 
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19 June 2021 15:49
 

Unsmoked, I love you. But “inherent mind” is meaningless. It is the same as Frog mind and Buddha mind. I can say “Logos mind” or “serpent mind” or “stellar mind”.  You can talk about all kinds of mental states. What about “psylosibin”  mind?  You will see colors that have no name and shapes that have no form. So what?

[ Edited: 19 June 2021 16:26 by EN]
 
unsmoked
 
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20 June 2021 11:34
 
EN - 19 June 2021 03:49 PM

Unsmoked, I love you. But “inherent mind” is meaningless. It is the same as Frog mind and Buddha mind. I can say “Logos mind” or “serpent mind” or “stellar mind”.  You can talk about all kinds of mental states. What about “psylosibin”  mind?  You will see colors that have no name and shapes that have no form. So what?

If quantum scientists and string theory proponents haven’t already said that ‘mind makes the world’, they will soon.  https://www.space.com/17594-string-theory.html

That being said, Zen Master Dazhu agrees with you.  He points out to me and other Zen adherents, “You are luckily all right by yourself, yet you struggle artificially.  Why do you want to put on fetters and go to prison?  You are busy every day claiming to study Zen, learn the Way, and interpret Buddhism, but this alienates you even further.  It is just chasing sound and form.  When will you ever stop?”

Dazhu goes on to say, “My teacher said to me, “The treasure house within you contains everything, [your inherent mind?] and you are free to use it.  You don’t need to seek outside.”  (end Dazhu quote)

You are also right about frog mind and Buddha mind being the same.  “Like a wild bird in the forest, like a tiger in the jungle.”  (all relying on their inherent mind)

(Dazhu quoted from the book, ZEN ESSENCE - The Science of Freedom - translated and edited by Thomas Cleary

 

 

 

[ Edited: 20 June 2021 11:36 by unsmoked]
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EN
 
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21 June 2021 06:54
 

Then just say “be yourself” and stop putting all kinds of complicated adornment on it.

 
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21 June 2021 07:26
 
EN - 21 June 2021 06:54 AM

Then just say “be yourself” and stop putting all kinds of complicated adornment on it.

The complicated adornment can be useful for some people.  The “word salad” stuff in Zen to me serves a useful purpose.  The wisdom is not in the “word salad” itself, but the best koans and proverbs are those that encourage you to engage in lateral thinking.  They teach you to alter your perspective in order to consider problems from another angle.

A major difference between Zen sayings and something from Deepak Chopra/Jordan Peterson, is that Zen tends to rely on simple language in it’s attempt to convey significant meaning, where as Chopra/Peterson rely heavily on $10 words in order to give the air of significance to what they say.

I would agree with you that there is no inherent truth value in the teachings of Zen, except that it is one of many pathways to trying to be a more humble person who is willing to look at an issue from a perspective other than their own.  It is a way to learn and adopt useful thinking patterns that comes with no moral/tradition baggage.

 
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