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Lex Freidman interviews Yeonmi Park

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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10 July 2021 08:01
 
weird buffalo - 09 July 2021 03:11 PM

So, $0 to $10 is a spectrum.  But any amount of money… is an amount of money.  It cannot be $0.  If our spectrum is 0-10, with zero being “no racism”, then any amount along the spectrum… is some amount of racism.  I agree, you can occupy any space on that spectrum that you’d like to occupy… but any value other than 0… must by definition, include some amount of racism.

In addition, 0 and 10 cannot be mirrors of each other.  They are definitionally not the same.  Horseshoe theory is bullshit.

Racism is subjective, math is not. The dictionary definition of racism implies that the racist has conscious beliefs. But these days that definition is expanding, and the woke are telling us that we’re also racist even if we have no conscious racist beliefs. Much like Christianity, we’re all born broken, or so we’re told.

But back to the main point, surely those of us on this forum are not as racist as KKK members. And to your point, who in the world is absolutely not at all racist? No one could defend that claim. Certainly not against woke standards.

So back to the earlier point, I would say that there is no, single schism. There are many schism of varying degrees. And some purveyors of “woke” are busily constructing new ones.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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10 July 2021 09:39
 
icehorse - 10 July 2021 08:01 AM

...and the woke are telling us that we’re also racist even if we have no conscious racist beliefs…

That sounds almost exactly like the hyperbolic misrepresentations coming from many right-wing sources.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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10 July 2021 09:57
 
Jefe - 10 July 2021 09:39 AM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 08:01 AM

...and the woke are telling us that we’re also racist even if we have no conscious racist beliefs…

That sounds almost exactly like the hyperbolic misrepresentations coming from many right-wing sources.

Indeed, I sometimes suspect that there is a secret, universal “Extremists Handbook” that extremists of all stripes work from.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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10 July 2021 10:00
 
icehorse - 10 July 2021 09:57 AM
Jefe - 10 July 2021 09:39 AM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 08:01 AM

...and the woke are telling us that we’re also racist even if we have no conscious racist beliefs…

That sounds almost exactly like the hyperbolic misrepresentations coming from many right-wing sources.

Indeed, I sometimes suspect that there is a secret, universal “Extremists Handbook” that extremists of all stripes work from.

And here you are, rebroadcasting it…

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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10 July 2021 10:46
 
Jefe - 10 July 2021 10:00 AM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 09:57 AM
Jefe - 10 July 2021 09:39 AM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 08:01 AM

...and the woke are telling us that we’re also racist even if we have no conscious racist beliefs…

That sounds almost exactly like the hyperbolic misrepresentations coming from many right-wing sources.

Indeed, I sometimes suspect that there is a secret, universal “Extremists Handbook” that extremists of all stripes work from.

And here you are, rebroadcasting it…

And here I am “discussing” it, as it’s relevant.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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10 July 2021 10:48
 
icehorse - 10 July 2021 10:46 AM
Jefe - 10 July 2021 10:00 AM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 09:57 AM
Jefe - 10 July 2021 09:39 AM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 08:01 AM

...and the woke are telling us that we’re also racist even if we have no conscious racist beliefs…

That sounds almost exactly like the hyperbolic misrepresentations coming from many right-wing sources.

Indeed, I sometimes suspect that there is a secret, universal “Extremists Handbook” that extremists of all stripes work from.

And here you are, rebroadcasting it…

And here I am “discussing” it, as it’s relevant.

...without disclaimer, it is more of a rebroadcast than a discussion…

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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10 July 2021 12:07
 
Jefe - 10 July 2021 10:48 AM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 10:46 AM
Jefe - 10 July 2021 10:00 AM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 09:57 AM
Jefe - 10 July 2021 09:39 AM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 08:01 AM

...and the woke are telling us that we’re also racist even if we have no conscious racist beliefs…

That sounds almost exactly like the hyperbolic misrepresentations coming from many right-wing sources.

Indeed, I sometimes suspect that there is a secret, universal “Extremists Handbook” that extremists of all stripes work from.

And here you are, rebroadcasting it…

And here I am “discussing” it, as it’s relevant.

...without disclaimer, it is more of a rebroadcast than a discussion…

Sincerely, what would an example of a disclaimer be?

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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10 July 2021 12:33
 
icehorse - 10 July 2021 12:07 PM
Jefe - 10 July 2021 10:48 AM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 10:46 AM
Jefe - 10 July 2021 10:00 AM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 09:57 AM
Jefe - 10 July 2021 09:39 AM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 08:01 AM

...and the woke are telling us that we’re also racist even if we have no conscious racist beliefs…

That sounds almost exactly like the hyperbolic misrepresentations coming from many right-wing sources.

Indeed, I sometimes suspect that there is a secret, universal “Extremists Handbook” that extremists of all stripes work from.

And here you are, rebroadcasting it…

And here I am “discussing” it, as it’s relevant.

...without disclaimer, it is more of a rebroadcast than a discussion…

Sincerely, what would an example of a disclaimer be?

You’re a smart guy, you could figure it out.

As posted, the quoted sentence suggests that this is your opinion of what a ‘woke’ message is.  Yet in other threads, you are claiming to search for a way to communicate about these issues that are non-derogatory.  So which is it? Is your attitude toward the ‘woke’ overall a negative opinion, or is your goal to be able to discuss issues from a clinical perspective?

I ask, sincerely, because it seems like you have come to this thread with a preconception of some terms. And it’s not clear that your understanding of these terms are the same as others’ understandings might be.  Such as the echoing of right-wing hyperbolic talking points as mentioned above.  Such as the ‘...of a kind’ comment earlier in this thread.

 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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10 July 2021 12:44
 

I think Icehorse is correct to a certain degree.

To me, woke-ism basically says this:

“The system is irredeemably racist. If you are white and think otherwise, you are too. And even if you don’t, you are probably a racist anyway, but don’t realize it. And don’t try to engage in a conversation about it either. You are part of the dominant racist culture. You have had it your way for centuries. You don’t realize what it is to be non-white. You should only listen to what we tell you, and shut up.”

The thing I wonder about is, except for college campuses and social media using twenty-somethings, where do the so-called “woke” people really exist? How many of them are there? Sure, there’s a lot of online “cancelling” and shaming, but basically, aren’t these the same people?

I wonder if “the Woke” are used in the same capacity as Antifa is by the right wing? There aren’t that many people who are a part of Antifa, and Antifa is a loose knit, leaderless group anyway. But the right has blown them up into giant dangerous movement of criminal anarchists. I wonder if it’s the same with Woke-ism. How many truly woke people are really out there, except for college campuses and an outsized presence on social media? Is the right wing media blowing Woke-ism way out of proportion to what it really is? And is the left and news media buying into it as well?

[ Edited: 10 July 2021 12:53 by Cheshire Cat]
 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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10 July 2021 12:52
 
Cheshire Cat - 10 July 2021 12:44 PM

To me, woke-ism basically says this:

“The system is irredeemable racist. If you are white and think otherwise, you are too. And even if you don’t, you are probably a racist anyway, but don’t realize it. And don’t try to engage in a conversation about it either. You are part of the dominant racist culture. You have had it your way for centuries. You don’t realize what it is to be non-white. You should only listen to what we tell you, and shut up.”

Perhaps there are those among the ‘woke’ who think this way, I couldn’t say.
But to try to attribute that attitude across the board seems like a mistake to me.

And, to me, identifying discriminatory artifacts in existing systems and then correcting them is not really saying “irredeemably racist”.

Cheshire Cat - 10 July 2021 12:44 PM

The thing I wonder about is, except for college campuses and social media using twenty-somethings, where do the so-called “woke” people really exist? How many of them are there? Sure, there’s a lot of online “cancelling” and shaming, but basically, aren’t these the same people?

I think this is a big question.  To me it seems like ‘the media’ and politicians are amplifying these issues way out of proportion.

Cheshire Cat - 10 July 2021 12:44 PM

I wonder if “the Woke” are used in the same capacity as Antifa is by the right wing? There aren’t that many people who are a part of Antifa, and Antifa is a loose knit, leaderless group anyway. But the right has blown them up into giant dangerous movement of criminal anarchists. I wonder if it’s the same with Woke-ism. How many truly woke people are really out there, except for college campuses and an outsized presence on social media? Is the right wing media blowing Woke-ism way out of proportion to what it really is? And is the left and news media buying into it as well?

The GOP strategy for a lot of these supposedly ‘woke’ issues is to engage in hyperbolic scare tactics to make people in their preferred demographic think they are crazy or ridiculously overboard and about to take over the entire US - when that’s not really the case, and the language and framing they (the GOP) use paints these issues as entirely different from what the scholars are actually talking about.

[ Edited: 10 July 2021 12:56 by Jefe]
 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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10 July 2021 13:40
 
Jefe - 10 July 2021 12:33 PM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 12:07 PM
Jefe - 10 July 2021 10:48 AM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 10:46 AM
Jefe - 10 July 2021 10:00 AM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 09:57 AM
Jefe - 10 July 2021 09:39 AM
icehorse - 10 July 2021 08:01 AM

...and the woke are telling us that we’re also racist even if we have no conscious racist beliefs…

That sounds almost exactly like the hyperbolic misrepresentations coming from many right-wing sources.

Indeed, I sometimes suspect that there is a secret, universal “Extremists Handbook” that extremists of all stripes work from.

And here you are, rebroadcasting it…

And here I am “discussing” it, as it’s relevant.

...without disclaimer, it is more of a rebroadcast than a discussion…

Sincerely, what would an example of a disclaimer be?

You’re a smart guy, you could figure it out.

As posted, the quoted sentence suggests that this is your opinion of what a ‘woke’ message is.  Yet in other threads, you are claiming to search for a way to communicate about these issues that are non-derogatory.  So which is it? Is your attitude toward the ‘woke’ overall a negative opinion, or is your goal to be able to discuss issues from a clinical perspective?

I ask, sincerely, because it seems like you have come to this thread with a preconception of some terms. And it’s not clear that your understanding of these terms are the same as others’ understandings might be.  Such as the echoing of right-wing hyperbolic talking points as mentioned above.  Such as the ‘...of a kind’ comment earlier in this thread.

c-cat:

I wonder if “the Woke” are used in the same capacity as Antifa is by the right wing? There aren’t that many people who are a part of Antifa, and Antifa is a loose knit, leaderless group anyway. But the right has blown them up into giant dangerous movement of criminal anarchists. I wonder if it’s the same with Woke-ism. How many truly woke people are really out there, except for college campuses and an outsized presence on social media? Is the right wing media blowing Woke-ism way out of proportion to what it really is? And is the left and news media buying into it as well?

A couple of points here:

The very fact that “woke” is a term is some indication that the ideas associated with wokeness have already had some impact on society. Similar things can be said for terms like: social justice (warrior), trigger warning, safe space, intersectionality, CRT and so on. And if you do a little duckduckgo-ing you can start to see how these ideas tend to flock together.

As for how many woke people there are, or who think this way, wouldn’t we agree that it doesn’t take many extremists to shift society? If nothing else, to shift various Overton windows?

I would hazard that you’ve both heard the list of terms I stated above enough times that you understand them. Might be able to relate some stories to them, and so on. In other words, regardless of the mechanism, these ideas ARE making their way into society.

As for these ideas being “my opinion”, of course I have to cop to that. This is a tricky and slippery set of ideas, and I’m not aware of the “Definitive Guide to Woke Culture and Lingo”. If there is one, I’ll buy a copy.

And, once again, given that we’re in a debate forum, it is my MO to try to uncover the potentially controversial aspects of ideologies. So perhaps most “woke” people aren’t extremists. So what? It’s important to talk about the ones who are extremists and who ARE shifting our society.

BTW c-cat, your quote in italics seemed spot-on. Was that your creation or did you find that somewhere?

 

 
 
Jefe
 
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10 July 2021 13:58
 
icehorse - 10 July 2021 01:40 PM

The very fact that “woke” is a term is some indication that the ideas associated with wokeness have already had some impact on society. Similar things can be said for terms like: social justice (warrior), trigger warning, safe space, intersectionality, CRT and so on.

I’m not convinced that your understanding of these terms and concepts is the same as others - or that you’re not painting them with a broad-brush that excludes or overlooks nuanced details of the disciplines in question.  We, you and I, certainly found different interpretations of CRT in that other thread.

icehorse - 10 July 2021 01:40 PM

And if you do a little duckduckgo-ing you can start to see how these ideas tend to flock together.

How they tend to be misrepresented hyperbolically by the right? Yes.

icehorse - 10 July 2021 01:40 PM

As for how many woke people there are, or who think this way, wouldn’t we agree that it doesn’t take many extremists to shift society? If nothing else, to shift various Overton windows?

To me, this speaks back to a broad-brush approach mentioned above.

icehorse - 10 July 2021 01:40 PM

I would hazard that you’ve both heard the list of terms I stated above enough times that you understand them. Might be able to relate some stories to them, and so on. In other words, regardless of the mechanism, these ideas ARE making their way into society.

I’ve heard them.  But I’m not convinced a lay-person who hasn’t taken the time to learn a little more about them than what the news might present, actually understands them. And I do think that some schools of media and politicization would like them to be treated as crazy extremism.

icehorse - 10 July 2021 01:40 PM

As for these ideas being “my opinion”, of course I have to cop to that. This is a tricky and slippery set of ideas, and I’m not aware of the “Definitive Guide to Woke Culture and Lingo”. If there is one, I’ll buy a copy.

I was more referencing past mentions where you painted these concepts in a negative light.  A light that wasn’t perhaps an accurate representation of the actual scholarly hypotheses.  As you mention, your MO is to post slippery slope arguments in a hyperbolic fashion, so one has to wonder how much hyperbole and over-reactiveness is contained in your consideration of these listed items.

icehorse - 10 July 2021 01:40 PM

And, once again, given that we’re in a debate forum, it is my MO to try to uncover the potentially controversial aspects of ideologies. So perhaps most “woke” people aren’t extremists. So what? It’s important to talk about the ones who are extremists and who ARE shifting our society.

Which ones are the extremists?  How much influence do they actually have on the OWs?  Or is this another case of media/politics over-exaggerating a manufactroversy?  (Like teaching CRT to grade-schoolers in Florida?)

icehorse - 10 July 2021 01:40 PM

BTW c-cat, your quote in italics seemed spot-on. Was that your creation or did you find that somewhere?

I think CC’s italicized quote is a good description of what some politicians and alt-righters would like people to see in these described topics.  I think that is exactly their re-framing agenda - to trivialize and crazy-fy any talk within those schools.  It sounds like a Tucker-Carlson-ism of those topics of discussion.

[ Edited: 10 July 2021 14:01 by Jefe]
 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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10 July 2021 14:17
 
icehorse - 10 July 2021 01:40 PM

BTW c-cat, your quote in italics seemed spot-on. Was that your creation or did you find that somewhere?

The definition above popped out of my head.

The main source of what I’ve read about the woke left is from Skeptic Magazine which Michael Shermer oversees. There have been a few articles about it.

I’d wager that some of the terms you’ve used, such as “trigger warning,” “safe space,” and “intersectionality,” are pretty much exclusive to the ivory towers of universities and those who have graduated from them.

From the limited amount that I’ve read about Critical Race Theory, it seems to have been a fairly obscure idea which had a lot to do with primarily legal applications at the time. The right wing has successfully linked it to woke-ism, which I don’t think it is.

The term “social justice warrior” I personally don’t associate with woke-ism. I think it’s a broader term for people who want a level playing field for people of all races and sexual orientation.  But again, right wing media wants to turn it into another word for left wing extremist, which I don’t think it is.

 
 
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10 July 2021 15:28
 
Jefe - 10 July 2021 01:58 PM

I think CC’s italicized quote is a good description of what some politicians and alt-righters would like people to see in these described topics.  I think that is exactly their re-framing agenda - to trivialize and crazy-fy any talk within those schools.  It sounds like a Tucker-Carlson-ism of those topics of discussion.

I’m far from being Tucker Carlson, but I think my definition is true. We’re talking about the extreme left here, not the classic liberal stance about pro equal rights and human rights, which most of us agree with.

I’ve read about how on a lot of college campuses, professors are terrified to question or discuss alternative points of view for fear of “triggering” the emotions of their students. And with good reason. The students can ruin a professors career and cancel him. Many careers have been ruined.

College used to be a place to be challenged with new ideas and a questioning of assumptions. On many campuses, this is no longer the case. There is an infantilization going on with a lot of these “woke” students.

But again, as I stated earlier, outside of universities, I don’t know how widespread this attitude is in the culture at large. I suspect it’s not that widespread except with right wing media.

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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11 July 2021 08:14
 
Cheshire Cat - 10 July 2021 03:28 PM

I’ve read about how on a lot of college campuses, professors are terrified to question or discuss alternative points of view for fear of “triggering” the emotions of their students. And with good reason. The students can ruin a professors career and cancel him. Many careers have been ruined.

Yes, I too have heard about this “War on Christmas”.

In other words, I’ve heard about the concern expressed.  But I have not actually seen evidence that this concern is valid.  I’ve heard more stories of “leftist” professors being denied tenure than I have conservative ones.  The one example I can think of is Weinstein, who wasn’t cancelled.  Instead, he squeezed $500,000 out of the college, got famous for it, and is now teaching at Princeton… a much more prestigious school than Evergreen.  I know quite a few professors who would LOVE to have those kinds of “problems”.

[ Edited: 11 July 2021 08:27 by weird buffalo]
 
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