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Lex Freidman interviews Yeonmi Park

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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11 July 2021 09:58
 

This is just one data point:

anti-woke dems

I don’t need for wokeness to be an issue. I hope it’s not. But I think it is. But you know, trend-spotting and future-predicting are activities fraught with errors. wink

The reason it concerns me though, is because the extreme end of wokeness is just like the old Who song:

Meet the new boss,
Same as the old boss.

The woke extremists are just constructing new ways to divide us. And you know my main theme is that we ALL should be banding together to fight the Oligarchy, so every flavor of attempt to divide us seems like folly until the ship isn’t sinking anymore.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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11 July 2021 10:32
 
icehorse - 11 July 2021 09:58 AM

The woke extremists are just constructing new ways to divide us. And you know my main theme is that we ALL should be banding together to fight the Oligarchy, so every flavor of attempt to divide us seems like folly until the ship isn’t sinking anymore.

Except, the artifacts that these social issues seek to address, are tools of the oligarchy.
And removing structures of disadvantage from existing systems is a unifying measure that levels equity for all.

So excising system-embedded discrimination IS fighting the oligarchy. 
Recognizing structures of in-built disadvantage, and correcting them, IS fighting the oligarchy.
Learning the actual history, and exploitive methods of the nation’s formation, and avoiding use of those exploitive structures into the future, IS fighting the oligarchy.

Edit: And to address the thrust of the OP: Libertarianism is a tool of the oligarchy.  They’d love nothing better than for the US to adopt a stringent laissez-faire capitalism so they can further cement their lock on the power structures of the nation.

 

[ Edited: 11 July 2021 11:16 by Jefe]
 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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11 July 2021 11:59
 
icehorse - 11 July 2021 09:58 AM

The woke extremists are just constructing new ways to divide us.

This gets repeated by you very often.  Give us an example of a divide that did not exist before, but exists now due to how “woke extremists” are dividing us.

And I will not give a shit about an op-ed you disagree with.  I want an actual demonstration of division that has had consequences on people’s lives, not just an essay someone wrote that you disagree with.  I don’t care that a conservative columnist disagrees with leftist ideas either.  That isn’t “division” to me, that’s just disagreeing.

[ Edited: 11 July 2021 12:02 by weird buffalo]
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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11 July 2021 17:04
 
weird buffalo - 11 July 2021 11:59 AM
icehorse - 11 July 2021 09:58 AM

The woke extremists are just constructing new ways to divide us.

This gets repeated by you very often.  Give us an example of a divide that did not exist before, but exists now due to how “woke extremists” are dividing us.

And I will not give a shit about an op-ed you disagree with.  I want an actual demonstration of division that has had consequences on people’s lives, not just an essay someone wrote that you disagree with.  I don’t care that a conservative columnist disagrees with leftist ideas either.  That isn’t “division” to me, that’s just disagreeing.

Yes sir! Let me jump right on that boss-man!

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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11 July 2021 17:44
 

It would be kind of ‘discussion-like’ if you did.

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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11 July 2021 22:05
 
icehorse - 11 July 2021 05:04 PM
weird buffalo - 11 July 2021 11:59 AM
icehorse - 11 July 2021 09:58 AM

The woke extremists are just constructing new ways to divide us.

This gets repeated by you very often.  Give us an example of a divide that did not exist before, but exists now due to how “woke extremists” are dividing us.

And I will not give a shit about an op-ed you disagree with.  I want an actual demonstration of division that has had consequences on people’s lives, not just an essay someone wrote that you disagree with.  I don’t care that a conservative columnist disagrees with leftist ideas either.  That isn’t “division” to me, that’s just disagreeing.

Yes sir! Let me jump right on that boss-man!

If you cannot provide an example of the thing you claim is true… then I would be justified in coming to the conclusion that your claim is false.

 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
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12 July 2021 17:13
 
weird buffalo - 11 July 2021 11:59 AM

And I will not give a shit about an op-ed you disagree with.  I want an actual demonstration of division that has had consequences on people’s lives, not just an essay someone wrote that you disagree with.  I don’t care that a conservative columnist disagrees with leftist ideas either.  That isn’t “division” to me, that’s just disagreeing.

I think whatever being “woke” means, some version of it has been used as a tool of the right wing media to bludgeon Democrats over the head with.

As I’ve mentioned earlier, except for universities, and a loud presence on social media, I don’t really think there are a lot of “woke” people out there. I gave a definition of what I think woke-ism really is.

So, Weird, I’d be curious what your definition of being woke is, and how many people you think would fit into this category?

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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12 July 2021 17:45
 

I think “woke” is now predominantly used as a pejorative term used to refer to progressives.  Maybe several years ago I heard it used by some leftists, but not any more.  I’ve never heard a politician or a professor use it to refer to themselves.

 
diding
 
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diding
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12 July 2021 19:48
 

John McWhorter calling himself Woke:

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6250118042001#sp=show-clips

[ Edited: 12 July 2021 19:55 by diding]
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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13 July 2021 08:12
 

I am attached not at all to the term “woke”. Below is a copy of my earlier post in this thread, post #3:

icehorse:

There is a collection of ideas swirling around the extreme left these days. And to be fair, I don’t know what the acceptable name is for people who largely adhere to these ideas? “woke”? “extreme progressive”?  So for now I’ll use “woke”. I’m happy to use a different term.

The collection of ideas promoted by the woke include things like: trigger warnings, safe spaces, intersectionality theory, CRT, the “oppressors vs oppressed” worldview, identity politics, and so on.

So LJ and weird, I’m trying to understand your reactions to the ideas in this video. The only thing I can conclude is that some of these ideas are in conflict with “woke”?

I could be wrong though..

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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13 July 2021 10:00
 
weird buffalo - 11 July 2021 10:05 PM
icehorse - 11 July 2021 05:04 PM
weird buffalo - 11 July 2021 11:59 AM
icehorse - 11 July 2021 09:58 AM

The woke extremists are just constructing new ways to divide us.

This gets repeated by you very often.  Give us an example of a divide that did not exist before, but exists now due to how “woke extremists” are dividing us.

And I will not give a shit about an op-ed you disagree with.  I want an actual demonstration of division that has had consequences on people’s lives, not just an essay someone wrote that you disagree with.  I don’t care that a conservative columnist disagrees with leftist ideas either.  That isn’t “division” to me, that’s just disagreeing.

Yes sir! Let me jump right on that boss-man!

If you cannot provide an example of the thing you claim is true… then I would be justified in coming to the conclusion that your claim is false.

I’ll try to remain civil here, and meet you half way. What I won’t get into with you is providing a bunch of links to articles only to have you do some cherry picking.

What I discovered is that if you search on the phrase “concerns about woke”, you’ll get a whole bunch of search results. Notice how I’ve avoided saying that you’re using an appeal from ignorance?

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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13 July 2021 10:14
 

Doesn’t woke simply mean alert to social injustice, especially racism?

 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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13 July 2021 10:17
 
EN - 13 July 2021 10:14 AM

Doesn’t woke simply mean alert to social injustice, especially racism?

That’s how it was initially used in the civil rights movement.  Nowadays, our political discourse has influenced it’s meaning in different circles.  For some it is a description of awareness.  For others it is a pejorative term - much like social justice warrior has been co-opted or corrupted to mean different things in different circles.

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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13 July 2021 10:34
 
icehorse - 13 July 2021 10:00 AM
weird buffalo - 11 July 2021 10:05 PM
icehorse - 11 July 2021 05:04 PM
weird buffalo - 11 July 2021 11:59 AM
icehorse - 11 July 2021 09:58 AM

The woke extremists are just constructing new ways to divide us.

This gets repeated by you very often.  Give us an example of a divide that did not exist before, but exists now due to how “woke extremists” are dividing us.

And I will not give a shit about an op-ed you disagree with.  I want an actual demonstration of division that has had consequences on people’s lives, not just an essay someone wrote that you disagree with.  I don’t care that a conservative columnist disagrees with leftist ideas either.  That isn’t “division” to me, that’s just disagreeing.

Yes sir! Let me jump right on that boss-man!

If you cannot provide an example of the thing you claim is true… then I would be justified in coming to the conclusion that your claim is false.

I’ll try to remain civil here, and meet you half way. What I won’t get into with you is providing a bunch of links to articles only to have you do some cherry picking.

What I discovered is that if you search on the phrase “concerns about woke”, you’ll get a whole bunch of search results. Notice how I’ve avoided saying that you’re using an appeal from ignorance?

What I said is not an appeal to ignorance.

An appeal to ignorance is to put forward an idea that must be solved, posit that there is no alternative solution that I can imagine… and therefore that is proof that my conclusion is correct.

You have made the claim that “woke” people are divisive.  You have not demonstrated that this is true.  Please feel free to demonstrate that it is true.

I will give an example of something I won’t accept.
Black Lives Matter is causing racial divisions.  Now, I’ll explain why I won’t accept that.

For the claim “black live matter is the cause of racial divisions” to be true, it would mean that racial divisions didn’t exist in this country prior to the existence of BLM.  Without conclusive evidence that BLM also possess time-travel technology, and unless we want to debate whether our universe relies on causality, it is generally assumed when discussing things that that something cannot be the cause of something that happened prior to it existing.  For example, I cannot be responsible for Abraham Lincoln’s death, since he died before I was born.  If racism existed prior to the creation of BLM, then BLM is not the cause of racial division in this country.  BLM was started in 2013.  I don’t want to put words in your mouth, so I’m going to assume right now that you are aware that racism existed long before 2013 in this country.

Racism is the cause of racial divisions, because it is literally the point of racism.

In a similar fashion, sexism existed long before anyone like Judith Butler came along.  Feminism didn’t cause sexism to exist.

 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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13 July 2021 10:46
 

What appears to be a reasonable request at a discussion forum often circles perpetually.  This is what happens when statements are copied from somewhere and repeated here.  When the inevitable questions follow there’s nowhere for the patron to turn unless the person who made the statements initially was asked the very same questions making the answers readily available to copy and repeat here along with their statements.  Without that the patron is lost.  And it leaves nowhere to go.  Which means everyone’s questions routinely go unanswered. 

Hence the spinning.

 
 
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