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Anti-vax Propaganda on Right-wing Media?

 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
Total Posts:  8279
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
20 July 2021 11:09
 
nonverbal - 20 July 2021 11:06 AM
Jefe - 20 July 2021 11:05 AM
nonverbal - 20 July 2021 10:52 AM

Thanks, Jefe. Please keep in mind that fewer than 2-thousandths of one percent of Americans have died of covid. Yes, I can’t but help realize how awful the disease is for many who get it and survive.

610,000 people in the US have died, and that number is growing.  As a percentage it seems small, but as an actual number it is significant.
For comparison, that’s roughly equivalent to the total US Combat War Casualties of the Civil War, WW1, WW2, and the Viet Nam war combined.  That’s not a trivial number of people who’ve died, even if the percentage seems small.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war

And, this says nothing about how many recovered patients have long-term health effects due to covid. Nor does it say anything about impending deaths due to covid variants of concern.

I mean, you have to find your path, but as a competent adult, you should have some understanding of the fall-out of such decisions, too.

Edited to add Combat War Casualties to clarify the numbers…

We’d all like the world to be a perfect place. I’m happy when it’s anywhere in the vicinity.

Trite.  I hope you, or your loved ones, don’t experience any harmful fall-out for your decision, but I can’t help but think your risk-assessment is skewed here.

[ Edited: 20 July 2021 11:30 by Jefe]
 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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20 July 2021 11:11
 
nonverbal - 20 July 2021 09:41 AM
EN - 20 July 2021 09:01 AM
nonverbal - 20 July 2021 08:48 AM
EN - 20 July 2021 07:56 AM

So we have an easy fix (a free vaccine) to a serious problem (a disease that is killing hundreds of thousands). It is not often that a serious problem has such a clear and easy remedy in the modern world. We can’t solve climate change, war, racism, or poverty, but we can solve this one. Yet half the population rejects it. This will go down as one of the stupidest chapters in American history, and we have already had some doozies.

Then let’s allow the unvaccinated experience covid. (I mean no disrespect to those who have a medical exemption.) How is that even controversial? I’ve had covid and it amounted to the mildest cold I’d ever had, and I’m 66.

Millions of people have already had a case and are therefore immune to varying degrees. Almost as many people have been vaccinated. Can’t we quit worrying and just get back to business?

Does that actually describe stupidity? This is a disease that will be with us basically forever, according to the docs. We might as well not just quite living, right?

1. The spike in unvaccinated people with the disease coming to the ER is already overwhelming some medical facilities in hard-hit states. So, they aren’t the only ones experiencing Covid - they are forcing medical personnel to experience it, too.

2. The vaccine is not 100% effective, as no vaccine is. So, the large numbers of unvaccinated people make it more likely that vaccinated people will get it.  So, the unvaccinated again are not the only ones experiencing it.

3. You, fortunately, had a mild case. That is not everyone’s experience. 20 and 30 year-olds are dying from the Delta variant.

4. The lack of vaccinated people means the virus hangs around longer and evolves into more dangerous variants. So, the unvaccinated again are causing others to experience it.

 

I’m far more worried about getting tetanus than getting covid again even though I haven’t been vaccinated.

Regarding #1 above, not to repeat myself too much, but why not let the unvaccinated people die if that’s what ends up happening? Anyone who wants a vaccine can get one, so who are you protecting?

1.  Just because you are bad at estimating risk probabilities, does not mean that your estimations are good.
2.  Not everyone can get a vaccine, even if they do want one.  They rely on the rest of us to get the vaccine so as to not endanger their lives.
3.  As mentioned above, the longer the disease runs through society the GREATER the danger it poses.  The delta variant evolved in the last few months and is more deadly and more infectious.  Vaccines are less effective against it.  There is a chance this will continue to happen, meaning that unvaccinated people are putting the entire population at risk.

If the number of unvaccinated people was just a few % of the country, then your argument would be fine.  But they aren’t.  They are a large enough population that they are putting the WHOLE population at risk.

US Covid deaths are about to surpass the number of deaths in the Civil War, the bloodiest war in American history.  The Civil War lasted for 4 years, and we’ve only been dealing with covid for 16 months.

[ Edited: 20 July 2021 11:14 by weird buffalo]
 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
Total Posts:  2230
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20 July 2021 11:59
 
Jefe - 20 July 2021 11:09 AM
nonverbal - 20 July 2021 11:06 AM
Jefe - 20 July 2021 11:05 AM
nonverbal - 20 July 2021 10:52 AM

Thanks, Jefe. Please keep in mind that fewer than 2-thousandths of one percent of Americans have died of covid. Yes, I can’t but help realize how awful the disease is for many who get it and survive.

610,000 people in the US have died, and that number is growing.  As a percentage it seems small, but as an actual number it is significant.
For comparison, that’s roughly equivalent to the total US Combat War Casualties of the Civil War, WW1, WW2, and the Viet Nam war combined.  That’s not a trivial number of people who’ve died, even if the percentage seems small.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war

And, this says nothing about how many recovered patients have long-term health effects due to covid. Nor does it say anything about impending deaths due to covid variants of concern.

I mean, you have to find your path, but as a competent adult, you should have some understanding of the fall-out of such decisions, too.

Edited to add Combat War Casualties to clarify the numbers…

We’d all like the world to be a perfect place. I’m happy when it’s anywhere in the vicinity.

Trite.  I hope you, or your loved ones, don’t experience any harmful fall-out for your decision, but I can’t help but think your risk-assessment is skewed here.

What loved ones, or even hated ones, could I possibly harm other than those who have no naturally-acquired immunity yet refuse to be vaccinated? If they’re intellectually disabled and they live in the US, then I can assure you that others are taking care of them. If they’re not intellectually disabled, then who are you protecting? Them?

Please clarify if you’re able to.

 

 
 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
Total Posts:  2230
Joined  31-10-2015
 
 
 
20 July 2021 12:02
 
weird buffalo - 20 July 2021 11:11 AM
nonverbal - 20 July 2021 09:41 AM
EN - 20 July 2021 09:01 AM
nonverbal - 20 July 2021 08:48 AM
EN - 20 July 2021 07:56 AM

So we have an easy fix (a free vaccine) to a serious problem (a disease that is killing hundreds of thousands). It is not often that a serious problem has such a clear and easy remedy in the modern world. We can’t solve climate change, war, racism, or poverty, but we can solve this one. Yet half the population rejects it. This will go down as one of the stupidest chapters in American history, and we have already had some doozies.

Then let’s allow the unvaccinated experience covid. (I mean no disrespect to those who have a medical exemption.) How is that even controversial? I’ve had covid and it amounted to the mildest cold I’d ever had, and I’m 66.

Millions of people have already had a case and are therefore immune to varying degrees. Almost as many people have been vaccinated. Can’t we quit worrying and just get back to business?

Does that actually describe stupidity? This is a disease that will be with us basically forever, according to the docs. We might as well not just quite living, right?

1. The spike in unvaccinated people with the disease coming to the ER is already overwhelming some medical facilities in hard-hit states. So, they aren’t the only ones experiencing Covid - they are forcing medical personnel to experience it, too.

2. The vaccine is not 100% effective, as no vaccine is. So, the large numbers of unvaccinated people make it more likely that vaccinated people will get it.  So, the unvaccinated again are not the only ones experiencing it.

3. You, fortunately, had a mild case. That is not everyone’s experience. 20 and 30 year-olds are dying from the Delta variant.

4. The lack of vaccinated people means the virus hangs around longer and evolves into more dangerous variants. So, the unvaccinated again are causing others to experience it.

 

I’m far more worried about getting tetanus than getting covid again even though I haven’t been vaccinated.

Regarding #1 above, not to repeat myself too much, but why not let the unvaccinated people die if that’s what ends up happening? Anyone who wants a vaccine can get one, so who are you protecting?

1.  Just because you are bad at estimating risk probabilities, does not mean that your estimations are good.
2.  Not everyone can get a vaccine, even if they do want one.  They rely on the rest of us to get the vaccine so as to not endanger their lives.
3.  As mentioned above, the longer the disease runs through society the GREATER the danger it poses.  The delta variant evolved in the last few months and is more deadly and more infectious.  Vaccines are less effective against it.  There is a chance this will continue to happen, meaning that unvaccinated people are putting the entire population at risk.

If the number of unvaccinated people was just a few % of the country, then your argument would be fine.  But they aren’t.  They are a large enough population that they are putting the WHOLE population at risk.

US Covid deaths are about to surpass the number of deaths in the Civil War, the bloodiest war in American history.  The Civil War lasted for 4 years, and we’ve only been dealing with covid for 16 months.

Excellent—the Civil War is the new Hitler.

Heil Civil War!

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
Total Posts:  8279
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
20 July 2021 12:07
 
nonverbal - 20 July 2021 11:59 AM

Trite.  I hope you, or your loved ones, don’t experience any harmful fall-out for your decision, but I can’t help but think your risk-assessment is skewed here.

What loved ones, or even hated ones, could I possibly harm other than those who have no naturally-acquired immunity yet refuse to be vaccinated? If they’re intellectually disabled and they live in the US, then I can assure you that others are taking care of them. If they’re not intellectually disabled, then who are you protecting? Them?

*sigh*  This question has been answered many times, in many different ways.
Play ignorant if you like, but the info is out there to be easily found if you want it.

The Delta-variant is affecting even dually-vaccinated folks.
The measures I advocate - getting vaccinated, which is a very very minor inconvenience for most - help protect everyone.

I don’t know about you, but I would be forever heartbroken if anyone was harmed by my failure to find 2 hours of my life on 2 separate occasions to get vaccinated.  And as a legal guardian for my mentally handicapped sister, and legal proxy for my increasingly demented mother, I’m extremely familiar with the responsibilities of a care-giver.  For both their sakes, and the sakes of others in ‘their’ lives, I cannot accept the risk of potentially passing a variant on to them, or through them, during regular care visits.

Again, you have to find your own path, but at least put in some effort to understand the risks your decisions produce.
And, I reiterate, I wish no harm to anyone, regardless of their decisions, but again, the pay-off vs. risk of vaccination is well documented and known.

 
 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
Total Posts:  2230
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20 July 2021 12:15
 

Why would I get vaccinated if I haven’t yet fully recovered from my previous vaccination? Please read a little more carefully, Jefe.

 

 
 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
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20 July 2021 12:20
 

And yes, I’ve spoken to my doctor about this. More than one doctor, over the years.

 
 
Rick Robson
 
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Rick Robson
Total Posts:  119
Joined  22-09-2017
 
 
 
20 July 2021 12:47
 
EN - 20 July 2021 07:56 AM

We can’t solve climate change, war, racism, or poverty, but we can solve this one. Yet half the population rejects it. This will go down as one of the stupidest chapters in American history, and we have already had some doozies.

nonverbal - 20 July 2021 12:15 PM

Millions of people have already had a case and are therefore immune to varying degrees. Almost as many people have been vaccinated. Can’t we quit worrying and just get back to business?

Does that actually describe stupidity? This is a disease that will be with us basically forever, according to the docs. We might as well not just quite living, right?

https://healthblog.uofmhealth.org/wellness-prevention/people-gave-up-on-flu-pandemic-measures-a-century-ago-when-they-tired-of-them?amp

https://amp.burlingtonfreepress.com/amp/7188656002

Sometimes it seems hauntingly untrue that people today have a much better understanding of virology and epidemiology than a century ago, let alone the much bigger amount of uneducated people of the third-world countries…. And, given that the world population is now much bigger than a century ago, unfortunately there inexorably are a bit more troubling SARS-CoV-2 variants spreading throughout every corner around the globe than all its other parent viruses could ever render back during those times.

Thus, I think the best way to figure out out what post-pandemic life will be like this time around is taking just a glance at how humanity emerged from the earlier pandemic, the Spanish flu, which in 1918 also hit hard and fast, going from a handful of reported cases in a few cities to nationwide outbreaks within a few weeks and prompted similar measures set out by health authorities and imposed by the government to end the pandemics. In the U.S., for example, precautions taken in Seattle, Washington,, during the Spanish flu pandemics would not permit anyone to ride on the street cars without wearing a mask. However, fhe deadly third wave of influenza in 1919 shows what can happen when people prematurely relax their guard:

By the late autumn of 1918, just weeks after the social-distancing orders went into effect, the pandemic seemed to be coming to an end as the number of new infections declined, cities that enacted social distancing measures early on and for a long duration were able to flatten the curve and had lower rates of morbidity and mortality. As most were eager to return to their old lives, they packed into movie theaters and dance halls, crowded in stores and shops, and gathered with friends and family. Predictably, the pandemic wore on, stretching into a third deadly wave that lasted through the spring of 1919, with a fourth wave hitting in the winter of 1920.

Unlike the novel coronavirus, which is most threatening to the elderly and immune-compromised, the 1918 influenza strain was particularly deadly in young, healthy populations, with a high mortality rate in the 20 to 40-year-old age group, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Another decisive difference is that the vaccines developed at the time were ineffective, largely due to the fact that the flu was mistakenly believed to be bacterial in nature, as secondary bacterial pneumonia was often the cause of death at that time. In the U.S. (and seemingly most countries) the vaccine rollout was a free-for-all, a wave of independently developed vaccines were distributed throughout the country by doctors and researchers who were confident they’d found the answer

At last, only after the Spanish flu had killed almost one third of the world population, it’s mortality rate increasingly declined. Today, it’s a well-known fact that H1N1 is the.influenza virus to blame for that pandemics.

“If we have anything to learn from the history of the 1918 influenza pandemic, as well as our experience thus far with COVID-19, however, it is that a premature return to pre-pandemic life risks more cases and more deaths.”—- I completely and totally agree!

[ Edited: 20 July 2021 14:03 by Rick Robson]
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
Total Posts:  8279
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20 July 2021 13:16
 
nonverbal - 20 July 2021 12:15 PM

Why would I get vaccinated if I haven’t yet fully recovered from my previous vaccination? Please read a little more carefully, Jefe.

It seems I read your response carefully enough to ask you about your reaction to your tetanus vaccine, no? 

nonverbal - 20 July 2021 12:20 PM

And yes, I’ve spoken to my doctor about this. More than one doctor, over the years.

So have they indicated that you’re generally allergic to all vaccines, or simply the ingredients of the tetanus vaccine?
Because there are probably differences.  Though your doctor would know best whether you should get a covid vaccine or not, given your history.

The reasoning I follow is, if you have a specific medical exemption to vaccines in general, then follow your doctor’s advice.
If you’re just scared because you had an allergic reaction to a tetanus vaccine, but the ingredients are not shared commonly between covid and tetanus vaccine, you may simply be allowing previous bad experiences to negatively influence your decision making.

Your arguments here, however, don’t reflect that reasoning.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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20 July 2021 13:26
 
nonverbal - 20 July 2021 12:02 PM

US Covid deaths are about to surpass the number of deaths in the Civil War, the bloodiest war in American history.  The Civil War lasted for 4 years, and we’ve only been dealing with covid for 16 months.

Excellent—the Civil War is the new Hitler.

Heil Civil War!

Ah yes.  Bring Hitler into it. That always helps.  /s

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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20 July 2021 13:32
 
Rick Robson - 20 July 2021 12:47 PM

At last, only after the Spanish flu had killed almost one third of the world population, it’s mortality rate increasingly declined. Today, it’s a well-known fact that H1N1 is the.influenza virus to blame for that pandemics.

“If we have anything to learn from the history of the 1918 influenza pandemic, as well as our experience thus far with COVID-19, however, it is that a premature return to pre-pandemic life risks more cases and more deaths.”—- I completely and totally agree!

There are so many parallels between the spanish flu pandemic and the covid pandemic.
From anti-masker nonsense, to open-early, let’s get on with it and damn the casualties nonsense.

If we refuse to learn from our past, our future will look awfully familiar, no?

 
 
Rick Robson
 
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Rick Robson
Total Posts:  119
Joined  22-09-2017
 
 
 
20 July 2021 13:53
 
Jefe - 20 July 2021 01:32 PM
Rick Robson - 20 July 2021 12:47 PM

At last, only after the Spanish flu had killed almost one third of the world population, it’s mortality rate increasingly declined. Today, it’s a well-known fact that H1N1 is the.influenza virus to blame for that pandemics.

“If we have anything to learn from the history of the 1918 influenza pandemic, as well as our experience thus far with COVID-19, however, it is that a premature return to pre-pandemic life risks more cases and more deaths.”—- I completely and totally agree!

There are so many parallels between the spanish flu pandemic and the covid pandemic.
From anti-masker nonsense, to open-early, let’s get on with it and damn the casualties nonsense.

If we refuse to learn from our past, our future will look awfully familiar, no?

Exactly, as well as if we refuse to hear the current advises and warnings coming from the scientific community. I think it’s about time for many people to be more opened to the fact that we’re not the center of the universe and it’s up only to ourselves to make this a better world. So, one first attitude to get in this pathway would be giving the due value and credit to what the health authorities have to say, what (to my big surprise) has been increasingly happening less and less particularly in the more developed countries…

 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
Total Posts:  1923
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20 July 2021 14:05
 
nonverbal - 20 July 2021 12:02 PM
weird buffalo - 20 July 2021 11:11 AM
nonverbal - 20 July 2021 09:41 AM
EN - 20 July 2021 09:01 AM
nonverbal - 20 July 2021 08:48 AM
EN - 20 July 2021 07:56 AM

So we have an easy fix (a free vaccine) to a serious problem (a disease that is killing hundreds of thousands). It is not often that a serious problem has such a clear and easy remedy in the modern world. We can’t solve climate change, war, racism, or poverty, but we can solve this one. Yet half the population rejects it. This will go down as one of the stupidest chapters in American history, and we have already had some doozies.

Then let’s allow the unvaccinated experience covid. (I mean no disrespect to those who have a medical exemption.) How is that even controversial? I’ve had covid and it amounted to the mildest cold I’d ever had, and I’m 66.

Millions of people have already had a case and are therefore immune to varying degrees. Almost as many people have been vaccinated. Can’t we quit worrying and just get back to business?

Does that actually describe stupidity? This is a disease that will be with us basically forever, according to the docs. We might as well not just quite living, right?

1. The spike in unvaccinated people with the disease coming to the ER is already overwhelming some medical facilities in hard-hit states. So, they aren’t the only ones experiencing Covid - they are forcing medical personnel to experience it, too.

2. The vaccine is not 100% effective, as no vaccine is. So, the large numbers of unvaccinated people make it more likely that vaccinated people will get it.  So, the unvaccinated again are not the only ones experiencing it.

3. You, fortunately, had a mild case. That is not everyone’s experience. 20 and 30 year-olds are dying from the Delta variant.

4. The lack of vaccinated people means the virus hangs around longer and evolves into more dangerous variants. So, the unvaccinated again are causing others to experience it.

 

I’m far more worried about getting tetanus than getting covid again even though I haven’t been vaccinated.

Regarding #1 above, not to repeat myself too much, but why not let the unvaccinated people die if that’s what ends up happening? Anyone who wants a vaccine can get one, so who are you protecting?

1.  Just because you are bad at estimating risk probabilities, does not mean that your estimations are good.
2.  Not everyone can get a vaccine, even if they do want one.  They rely on the rest of us to get the vaccine so as to not endanger their lives.
3.  As mentioned above, the longer the disease runs through society the GREATER the danger it poses.  The delta variant evolved in the last few months and is more deadly and more infectious.  Vaccines are less effective against it.  There is a chance this will continue to happen, meaning that unvaccinated people are putting the entire population at risk.

If the number of unvaccinated people was just a few % of the country, then your argument would be fine.  But they aren’t.  They are a large enough population that they are putting the WHOLE population at risk.

US Covid deaths are about to surpass the number of deaths in the Civil War, the bloodiest war in American history.  The Civil War lasted for 4 years, and we’ve only been dealing with covid for 16 months.

Excellent—the Civil War is the new Hitler.

Heil Civil War!

Thanks for removing any doubt that you are willing to engage in this discussion with logic and reason.

 
Skipshot
 
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Skipshot
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20 July 2021 23:18
 

1. Polio, Measles, and Small Pox never reached heard immunity.
2. Evolution is why a flu shot was an annual recommendation before the current pandemic.

Stop making excuses and just get the shot!  The time it takes to argue against the shot is more than the time to get the shot.  This is not a power-trip by government scientists, or a liberal hoax, or whatever bullshit rationalization pulled out of your ass.  Just get the shot!

California schools are requiring all students and staff to wear a mask when they return to school next month, mainly because of the anti-vaxxers.  Why?  Because parents can’t sue to open schools, but they sure can sue for opening too soon.  Sure, kids likely will get a mild case, but they will also be vectors, and that is a liability schools don’t need.

But if you want to fuck shit up and keep the pandemic going, then don’t vaccinate, but don’t expect any understanding from me.  Science is not like religion where you can cherry pick what you want to believe, because science has nothing to do with belief and everything to do with knowledge.  Rejecting knowledge is admitting willful ignorance.

Also, NV, I know where you live, and it’s not that far from me, and I’ll ambush you with a shot myself.  Just get the shot!

 
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