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Glen Loury and John McWhorter on CRT

 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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16 July 2021 10:05
 
diding - 15 July 2021 11:29 AM

https://youtu.be/-1znlcw7JT8

Can’t wait to see the full episode.

John does a great job at describing how the gaslighting and Motte and Bailey trick is done around the discussion of CRT.  Glen does a great job of describing the true intentions of far left proponents of CRT, namely the vilification of the West, which runs contrary to how many, many immigrants like myself and my relatives see things.  John is a self described “woke person on the left”. 

What do white progressives think about problematic people of color like Glen and John and any number of people of color who disagree with them?  From the Yeonmi Park thread I see that one way is to call them lying grifters, never mind their “lived experience”.  But what to make of John McWorter?

Here’s the Munk debate that John mentioned:

https://youtu.be/R4pikerUu6o

Well, I stopped listening when John said CRT teaches that white is bad.  I can’t find that anywhere in the descriptions of CRT.  So I think it’s a strawman propaganda ploy.  Not saying I agree with everything CRT teaches (as described in online summaries from, e.g. Encyclopedia Britannica).  Some experienced racism may be due more to hypersensitivity of the victim. 

If Glenn is judging CRT by it’s far left proponents, and not the more moderate & objective ones (I mean the proponents who carefully study society and look at the actual data), he’s setting up a strawman too.  As a white progressive I think he’s entitled to his opinion but to promote him & his conservative views or act as if they have more validity just because he’s black is, well, I don’t know.  Illogic?  One tenet of CRT you criticize is the “voice of colour” thesis [that] holds that people of colour are uniquely qualified to speak on behalf of other members of their group (or groups) regarding the forms and effects of racism.” (quoted from the Encyclopedia Britannica article).  Are you ascribing to that tenet when you promote Glenn Loury?  But then why dismiss the voices of many other people of colour with different experience?

 
diding
 
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diding
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16 July 2021 10:17
 
weird buffalo - 16 July 2021 09:08 AM
diding - 16 July 2021 08:49 AM
weird buffalo - 15 July 2021 09:43 PM
icehorse - 15 July 2021 07:22 PM
diding - 15 July 2021 06:20 PM

All kidding aside, how many boxes must one check to be able to claim the title of “left wing woke”?  I’m thinking that by the intersectional stack, McWhorter’s got most of the people here beat.  Probably #MeToo.  BIPOC immigrant AAPI blue collar Proletariat.

I’d guess that even for someone who scores so high using the intersectionality formulas, your lived experience will be discounted if you don’t adhere to woke dogma.

So, the argument here is that because he’s black and grew up poor… he MUST be a liberal?

You are saying that judging him by the character of his actions and not by who he was born as… I’m doing something wrong?  Holy fucking shit.

He calls himself a liberal because he believes in liberal things.  Nice try, Cathy Newman.

So far, your evidence to support that he’s a liberal has been to attack me.

You coming after me isn’t proof that he’s a liberal.

It does however suggest that you don’t have evidence to support your claim.  Because if you had some good evidence… you would have just provided it.

Ha ha.  I attacked you…..  That’s funny.  Did I violence on you with my words and spellings?

John calls himself a liberal.  There’s many interviews where he says this.  You can find them easily.  Go find the last time he was on Bill Maher.  I recall one where he lists all the ideas he has that are liberal.  I can do the same.  I can check many boxes that would put me in the liberal camp.

 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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16 July 2021 10:50
 
diding - 16 July 2021 10:17 AM

Ha ha.  I attacked you…..  That’s funny.  Did I violence on you with my words and spellings?

 

Do you need me to explain to you some basic debate and discussion terms?  Because this statement implies that you don’t understand some basic debate and discussion terms.

[ Edited: 16 July 2021 10:56 by weird buffalo]
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
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16 July 2021 11:35
 
diding - 16 July 2021 10:17 AM

John calls himself a liberal.  There’s many interviews where he says this.  You can find them easily.  Go find the last time he was on Bill Maher.  I recall one where he lists all the ideas he has that are liberal.  I can do the same.  I can check many boxes that would put me in the liberal camp.

One thing is for sure from the Realtime with Bill Maher clip — Maher is a huge admirer of John McWhorter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tjgXQDyqno

 
 
diding
 
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diding
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17 July 2021 13:50
 
weird buffalo - 16 July 2021 10:50 AM
diding - 16 July 2021 10:17 AM

Ha ha.  I attacked you…..  That’s funny.  Did I violence on you with my words and spellings?

 

Do you need me to explain to you some basic debate and discussion terms?  Because this statement implies that you don’t understand some basic debate and discussion terms.

I guess you’re trying to imply that I made some kind of Ad Hominemy attack upon your lived experiential bodily personhood because I compared you to Cathy “So what you’re saying is” Newman.  I recommend that you dismiss me for the knuckledragging peasant that I am.

 
diding
 
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diding
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17 July 2021 13:52
 
Cheshire Cat - 16 July 2021 11:35 AM
diding - 16 July 2021 10:17 AM

John calls himself a liberal.  There’s many interviews where he says this.  You can find them easily.  Go find the last time he was on Bill Maher.  I recall one where he lists all the ideas he has that are liberal.  I can do the same.  I can check many boxes that would put me in the liberal camp.

One thing is for sure from the Realtime with Bill Maher clip — Maher is a huge admirer of John McWhorter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tjgXQDyqno

White people should elevate and center John McWhorter’s Black voice.

 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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17 July 2021 14:45
 
diding - 17 July 2021 01:50 PM
weird buffalo - 16 July 2021 10:50 AM
diding - 16 July 2021 10:17 AM

Ha ha.  I attacked you…..  That’s funny.  Did I violence on you with my words and spellings?

 

Do you need me to explain to you some basic debate and discussion terms?  Because this statement implies that you don’t understand some basic debate and discussion terms.

I guess you’re trying to imply that I made some kind of Ad Hominemy attack upon your lived experiential bodily personhood because I compared you to Cathy “So what you’re saying is” Newman.  I recommend that you dismiss me for the knuckledragging peasant that I am.

Kind of.  I don’t really care about the content of what you said… since it was about me… and not the topic.  I could care less what you say about me, but the fact that you focus on me at all instead of the topic at hand tells me you have nothing of value to share about the topic.

You aren’t “attacking” the argument.  You’re focusing on me.  Why?  Because you have nothing of value to say.

 
diding
 
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diding
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18 July 2021 09:00
 
weird buffalo - 17 July 2021 02:45 PM
diding - 17 July 2021 01:50 PM
weird buffalo - 16 July 2021 10:50 AM
diding - 16 July 2021 10:17 AM

Ha ha.  I attacked you…..  That’s funny.  Did I violence on you with my words and spellings?

 

Do you need me to explain to you some basic debate and discussion terms?  Because this statement implies that you don’t understand some basic debate and discussion terms.

I guess you’re trying to imply that I made some kind of Ad Hominemy attack upon your lived experiential bodily personhood because I compared you to Cathy “So what you’re saying is” Newman.  I recommend that you dismiss me for the knuckledragging peasant that I am.

Kind of.  I don’t really care about the content of what you said… since it was about me… and not the topic.  I could care less what you say about me, but the fact that you focus on me at all instead of the topic at hand tells me you have nothing of value to share about the topic.

You aren’t “attacking” the argument.  You’re focusing on me.  Why?  Because you have nothing of value to say.

Fair enuff.  Consider what I did as a lighthearted dig at your argumentation style.  I find it similar to what Cathy “so what your saying is” Newman did to Jordan Peterson.  She misinterprets what the other person says and twists it around.  I’m not quite as mentally agile as Peterson, so it takes me a while to recognize that chicanery.  But when I saw it, I realized why it seemed so hard to have a good faith conversation with you.  That’s why I haven’t responded to your post about blacks not working hard.  You misrepresented what I said or at very least gave it the worst interpretation.

Whenever I get on these kinds of message boards, I try to imagine I’m passing a bottle around at deer camp.

 
diding
 
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diding
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18 July 2021 09:15
 

I think the interviewer asked some good hard questions.

He, again, states that he’s a liberal democrat who is only lumped in with conservatives because he has views which sometimes contradict the hard left orthodoxy.

https://youtu.be/a2UORLoCAZI

 
diding
 
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diding
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18 July 2021 09:30
 
Cheshire Cat - 16 July 2021 11:35 AM
diding - 16 July 2021 10:17 AM

John calls himself a liberal.  There’s many interviews where he says this.  You can find them easily.  Go find the last time he was on Bill Maher.  I recall one where he lists all the ideas he has that are liberal.  I can do the same.  I can check many boxes that would put me in the liberal camp.

One thing is for sure from the Realtime with Bill Maher clip — Maher is a huge admirer of John McWhorter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tjgXQDyqno

What do you make of all these left leaning people like McWhorter and Maher being lumped in with conservatives?  Even Sam Harris gets that treatment.  They (and I) have maintained the same liberal values for decades.  I think there might need to be a term like The Original Left to classify people like us.

 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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18 July 2021 10:06
 
diding - 17 July 2021 01:52 PM
Cheshire Cat - 16 July 2021 11:35 AM
diding - 16 July 2021 10:17 AM

John calls himself a liberal.  There’s many interviews where he says this.  You can find them easily.  Go find the last time he was on Bill Maher.  I recall one where he lists all the ideas he has that are liberal.  I can do the same.  I can check many boxes that would put me in the liberal camp.

One thing is for sure from the Realtime with Bill Maher clip — Maher is a huge admirer of John McWhorter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tjgXQDyqno

White people should elevate and center John McWhorter’s Black voice.

So do you think this one particular black person has the authority and ability to speak about racism that members of other racial groups do not have?  It seems fairly clear you’re selecting him as a spokesperson for the black experience because he’s black.  Why not other black people?

 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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18 July 2021 10:46
 

I just saw Mr. McWhorter on Firing Line with Margaret Hoover

He is concerned that CRT is a complex subject that requires a ‘generous take’ to understand. Folks on the right who hate it have over-simplified it. Folks on the left who love it have over-simplified it. Further nuance of CRT ruins it for both sides. Mr. McWhorter is vilified for bringing nuance to a subject when many people don’t want any.

These folks feel that no subject is fit for debate unless it has been simplified or that simplifying things is somehow a part of any problem’s solution. Some present such efforts of simplification here claiming they engaging in debate or breathing life into the forum.

I can admire Mr. McWhorter’s stance against short-scale reasoning on this or any other topic. I think he would be shocked to discover how many people are simply helpless when faced with nuance of any kind on any subject.

 

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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18 July 2021 10:49
 

What timing. I saw the show this morning and commented in another thread of yours.

I don’t think your summary fits.

 
 
diding
 
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diding
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18 July 2021 11:02
 
Nhoj Morley - 18 July 2021 10:49 AM

What timing. I saw the show this morning and commented in another thread of yours.

I don’t think your summary fits.

Ha!!  How ‘bout that?

You don’t think I did a good job of summarizing why he thinks he gets lumped in with conservatives?  How did you interpret his explanation?

 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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18 July 2021 11:05
 
diding - 18 July 2021 09:00 AM
weird buffalo - 17 July 2021 02:45 PM
diding - 17 July 2021 01:50 PM
weird buffalo - 16 July 2021 10:50 AM
diding - 16 July 2021 10:17 AM

Ha ha.  I attacked you…..  That’s funny.  Did I violence on you with my words and spellings?

 

Do you need me to explain to you some basic debate and discussion terms?  Because this statement implies that you don’t understand some basic debate and discussion terms.

I guess you’re trying to imply that I made some kind of Ad Hominemy attack upon your lived experiential bodily personhood because I compared you to Cathy “So what you’re saying is” Newman.  I recommend that you dismiss me for the knuckledragging peasant that I am.

Kind of.  I don’t really care about the content of what you said… since it was about me… and not the topic.  I could care less what you say about me, but the fact that you focus on me at all instead of the topic at hand tells me you have nothing of value to share about the topic.

You aren’t “attacking” the argument.  You’re focusing on me.  Why?  Because you have nothing of value to say.

Fair enuff.  Consider what I did as a lighthearted dig at your argumentation style.  I find it similar to what Cathy “so what your saying is” Newman did to Jordan Peterson.  She misinterprets what the other person says and twists it around.  I’m not quite as mentally agile as Peterson, so it takes me a while to recognize that chicanery.  But when I saw it, I realized why it seemed so hard to have a good faith conversation with you.  That’s why I haven’t responded to your post about blacks not working hard.  You misrepresented what I said or at very least gave it the worst interpretation.

Whenever I get on these kinds of message boards, I try to imagine I’m passing a bottle around at deer camp.

I am repeating back to you my best understanding of what you’re saying in those instance, or I am pointing out the logical conclusion that necessarily follows from the points you bring up.  If you feel those are incorrect, the response isn’t to say anything about me.  It’s to clarify what you’re saying.

Also, just because you don’t like a logical conclusion of your points and arguments, does not mean that the conclusion is wrong.  I know nothing about any of the people you keep linking… except for the things in the links.  I don’t know who they are.  I don’t know their life story.  I can only address the actual things that they say and how they present themselves.

Based on THE THINGS YOU LINK, McWhorter is not a liberal.  I said this.
You responded that he grew up poor and is black.  The only conclusion I can draw from this new information, is that YOU THINK I should judge someone based on the circumstances of their birth… AND NOT who they are now.  That conclusion is an extremely rational and logical consequence OF THE ARGUMENT YOU PRESENTED.  You presented the color of his skin as evidence for what kind of person he is.  I didn’t make that argument.  You did.

 
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