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Glen Loury and John McWhorter on CRT

 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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18 July 2021 11:08
 

If someone disagrees with Catholic orthodoxy, would you describe them as being a Catholic?

For example, I don’t believe God exists.  If I then told you I’m a Catholic, would you consider my statement to be a good description of my religious stance?

 
diding
 
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diding
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18 July 2021 11:13
 
lynmc - 18 July 2021 10:06 AM
diding - 17 July 2021 01:52 PM
Cheshire Cat - 16 July 2021 11:35 AM
diding - 16 July 2021 10:17 AM

John calls himself a liberal.  There’s many interviews where he says this.  You can find them easily.  Go find the last time he was on Bill Maher.  I recall one where he lists all the ideas he has that are liberal.  I can do the same.  I can check many boxes that would put me in the liberal camp.

One thing is for sure from the Realtime with Bill Maher clip — Maher is a huge admirer of John McWhorter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tjgXQDyqno

White people should elevate and center John McWhorter’s Black voice.

So do you think this one particular black person has the authority and ability to speak about racism that members of other racial groups do not have?  It seems fairly clear you’re selecting him as a spokesperson for the black experience because he’s black.  Why not other black people?

No, I don’t. I think white people can speak about racism, too.  Anybody can.  That’s not the game I play.

I don’t care so much that he’s black.  I like his ideas.  He makes sense to me and he expresses ideas that I think would be more helpful to solving the problems that he discusses. I was surprised to find out about him and other black thinkers who seem to go against the more commonly held beliefs by black people like the ones I live with here in Atlanta.  I don’t think any black people I know know of him or Coleman Hughes or Glen Loury.  Isn’t that a shame?

Why can he say things that would get a white person accused of racism?  Can I say those things as a POC?

 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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18 July 2021 11:24
 

The McWhorter threads have been merged.

 
 
diding
 
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diding
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18 July 2021 11:28
 
weird buffalo - 18 July 2021 11:05 AM
diding - 18 July 2021 09:00 AM
weird buffalo - 17 July 2021 02:45 PM
diding - 17 July 2021 01:50 PM
weird buffalo - 16 July 2021 10:50 AM
diding - 16 July 2021 10:17 AM

Ha ha.  I attacked you…..  That’s funny.  Did I violence on you with my words and spellings?

 

Do you need me to explain to you some basic debate and discussion terms?  Because this statement implies that you don’t understand some basic debate and discussion terms.

I guess you’re trying to imply that I made some kind of Ad Hominemy attack upon your lived experiential bodily personhood because I compared you to Cathy “So what you’re saying is” Newman.  I recommend that you dismiss me for the knuckledragging peasant that I am.

Kind of.  I don’t really care about the content of what you said… since it was about me… and not the topic.  I could care less what you say about me, but the fact that you focus on me at all instead of the topic at hand tells me you have nothing of value to share about the topic.

You aren’t “attacking” the argument.  You’re focusing on me.  Why?  Because you have nothing of value to say.

Fair enuff.  Consider what I did as a lighthearted dig at your argumentation style.  I find it similar to what Cathy “so what your saying is” Newman did to Jordan Peterson.  She misinterprets what the other person says and twists it around.  I’m not quite as mentally agile as Peterson, so it takes me a while to recognize that chicanery.  But when I saw it, I realized why it seemed so hard to have a good faith conversation with you.  That’s why I haven’t responded to your post about blacks not working hard.  You misrepresented what I said or at very least gave it the worst interpretation.

Whenever I get on these kinds of message boards, I try to imagine I’m passing a bottle around at deer camp.

I am repeating back to you my best understanding of what you’re saying in those instance, or I am pointing out the logical conclusion that necessarily follows from the points you bring up.  If you feel those are incorrect, the response isn’t to say anything about me.  It’s to clarify what you’re saying.

Also, just because you don’t like a logical conclusion of your points and arguments, does not mean that the conclusion is wrong.  I know nothing about any of the people you keep linking… except for the things in the links.  I don’t know who they are.  I don’t know their life story.  I can only address the actual things that they say and how they present themselves.

Based on THE THINGS YOU LINK, McWhorter is not a liberal.  I said this.
You responded that he grew up poor and is black.  The only conclusion I can draw from this new information, is that YOU THINK I should judge someone based on the circumstances of their birth… AND NOT who they are now.  That conclusion is an extremely rational and logical consequence OF THE ARGUMENT YOU PRESENTED.  You presented the color of his skin as evidence for what kind of person he is.  I didn’t make that argument.  You did.

McWhorter actually grew up kind of bourgeois, Montessori schools, and such.  Glen Loury grew up poor and disadvantaged, like Thomas Sowell and Larry Elder.  Yet, they developed views about the world and strategies to remedy inequalities that run counter to the dominant thinking of people of their race.  I don’t think you should judge someone of the circumstances of their birth.  I find it refreshing and inspiring when people from difficult beginnings have been able to break free from that gravitational force. Perhaps I can relate to it because of my immigrant origins.  If that’s the conclusion you came to then, fine, I communicated poorly.  But, you also took the worst interpretation of what I said. 

How come you don’t know about these black thinkers?  How come I didn’t know about them until I discovered Sam Harris?  I had heard about Cornell West and Al Sharpton, but no black people who have contrary views.  Isn’t that a shame?

 
diding
 
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diding
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18 July 2021 11:30
 
Nhoj Morley - 18 July 2021 11:24 AM

The McWhorter threads have been merged.

Nice.  I’m glad to have given him some exposure.

 
diding
 
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diding
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18 July 2021 11:34
 
weird buffalo - 18 July 2021 11:08 AM

If someone disagrees with Catholic orthodoxy, would you describe them as being a Catholic?

For example, I don’t believe God exists.  If I then told you I’m a Catholic, would you consider my statement to be a good description of my religious stance?

I think the definition of liberal democrat must have changed.  A Catholic who is Pro Choice would not have been considered a “True Catholic” once upon a time.  The same way a person who is obsessed with people’s color would not have been considered a liberal back in the day.  I suggested a term: “Original Liberal” to describe people like McWhorter, Bill Maher and myself.

 
mapadofu
 
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mapadofu
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18 July 2021 12:08
 
weird buffalo - 18 July 2021 11:08 AM

If someone disagrees with Catholic orthodoxy, would you describe them as being a Catholic?

For example, I don’t believe God exists.  If I then told you I’m a Catholic, would you consider my statement to be a good description of my religious stance?

I don’t think that you want to use Catholic as your example here…

 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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18 July 2021 16:23
 
diding - 18 July 2021 11:13 AM
lynmc - 18 July 2021 10:06 AM
diding - 17 July 2021 01:52 PM
Cheshire Cat - 16 July 2021 11:35 AM
diding - 16 July 2021 10:17 AM

John calls himself a liberal.  There’s many interviews where he says this.  You can find them easily.  Go find the last time he was on Bill Maher.  I recall one where he lists all the ideas he has that are liberal.  I can do the same.  I can check many boxes that would put me in the liberal camp.

One thing is for sure from the Realtime with Bill Maher clip — Maher is a huge admirer of John McWhorter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tjgXQDyqno

White people should elevate and center John McWhorter’s Black voice.

So do you think this one particular black person has the authority and ability to speak about racism that members of other racial groups do not have?  It seems fairly clear you’re selecting him as a spokesperson for the black experience because he’s black.  Why not other black people?

No, I don’t. I think white people can speak about racism, too.  Anybody can.  That’s not the game I play.

I don’t care so much that he’s black.  I like his ideas.  He makes sense to me and he expresses ideas that I think would be more helpful to solving the problems that he discusses. I was surprised to find out about him and other black thinkers who seem to go against the more commonly held beliefs by black people like the ones I live with here in Atlanta.  I don’t think any black people I know know of him or Coleman Hughes or Glen Loury.  Isn’t that a shame?

Why can he say things that would get a white person accused of racism?  Can I say those things as a POC?

McWhorter claims he can say things that would get a white person accused of racism.  But, in the debates with proponents of teaching CRT,  the white people who say the things he says are accused of is mainly fear-mongering for political gain.  As far as that goes, bringing up whether possible accusations of racism (for being against teaching CRT) isn’t an argument pro or con at all, it’s a red herring, a claim of victimhood not at all germane to the argument but made as if it should bolster the argument against CRT

I watched two debates with McWhorter.  In one, the proponent of teaching CRT said it wasn’t generally being taught in K-12 (the private school McWhorter cited being an exception) and she didn’t think it should be, but implied anti-racism should be taught in K-12. 

The other debate was about the 1619 project.  My summary: the 1619 project historian came across very well, providing cogent reasons for framing history from the point of view of arriving slaves rather just the pilgrims.  McWhorter blathered about one 1619 project proponent saying the revolutionary war was about preserving slavery.  Well, I went back and researched that and there is a good argument to be made that one of the sub-fights of the revolutionary war was to preserve slavery, see https://www.counterpunch.org/2011/05/23/was-the-american-revolution-fought-to-save-slavery/.

Anyway while I don’t doubt the excesses cited by McWhorter in specific schools, I doubt there’s a serious trend of CRT proponents seeking to turn elementary school kids into radical Marxists. It’s just fear-mongering blather.  Which really, is what McWhorter and Loury are good at, fear-mongering blather.

 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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18 July 2021 17:55
 
mapadofu - 18 July 2021 12:08 PM
weird buffalo - 18 July 2021 11:08 AM

If someone disagrees with Catholic orthodoxy, would you describe them as being a Catholic?

For example, I don’t believe God exists.  If I then told you I’m a Catholic, would you consider my statement to be a good description of my religious stance?

I don’t think that you want to use Catholic as your example here…

I think using “catholic” here communicates very well the point of my analogy.  If you’re having trouble with the idea I’m communicating, feel free to rephrase it, and I’ll tell you if it’s right or not.

 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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18 July 2021 18:27
 
diding - 18 July 2021 11:28 AM
weird buffalo - 18 July 2021 11:05 AM
diding - 18 July 2021 09:00 AM
weird buffalo - 17 July 2021 02:45 PM
diding - 17 July 2021 01:50 PM
weird buffalo - 16 July 2021 10:50 AM
diding - 16 July 2021 10:17 AM

Ha ha.  I attacked you…..  That’s funny.  Did I violence on you with my words and spellings?

 

Do you need me to explain to you some basic debate and discussion terms?  Because this statement implies that you don’t understand some basic debate and discussion terms.

I guess you’re trying to imply that I made some kind of Ad Hominemy attack upon your lived experiential bodily personhood because I compared you to Cathy “So what you’re saying is” Newman.  I recommend that you dismiss me for the knuckledragging peasant that I am.

Kind of.  I don’t really care about the content of what you said… since it was about me… and not the topic.  I could care less what you say about me, but the fact that you focus on me at all instead of the topic at hand tells me you have nothing of value to share about the topic.

You aren’t “attacking” the argument.  You’re focusing on me.  Why?  Because you have nothing of value to say.

Fair enuff.  Consider what I did as a lighthearted dig at your argumentation style.  I find it similar to what Cathy “so what your saying is” Newman did to Jordan Peterson.  She misinterprets what the other person says and twists it around.  I’m not quite as mentally agile as Peterson, so it takes me a while to recognize that chicanery.  But when I saw it, I realized why it seemed so hard to have a good faith conversation with you.  That’s why I haven’t responded to your post about blacks not working hard.  You misrepresented what I said or at very least gave it the worst interpretation.

Whenever I get on these kinds of message boards, I try to imagine I’m passing a bottle around at deer camp.

I am repeating back to you my best understanding of what you’re saying in those instance, or I am pointing out the logical conclusion that necessarily follows from the points you bring up.  If you feel those are incorrect, the response isn’t to say anything about me.  It’s to clarify what you’re saying.

Also, just because you don’t like a logical conclusion of your points and arguments, does not mean that the conclusion is wrong.  I know nothing about any of the people you keep linking… except for the things in the links.  I don’t know who they are.  I don’t know their life story.  I can only address the actual things that they say and how they present themselves.

Based on THE THINGS YOU LINK, McWhorter is not a liberal.  I said this.
You responded that he grew up poor and is black.  The only conclusion I can draw from this new information, is that YOU THINK I should judge someone based on the circumstances of their birth… AND NOT who they are now.  That conclusion is an extremely rational and logical consequence OF THE ARGUMENT YOU PRESENTED.  You presented the color of his skin as evidence for what kind of person he is.  I didn’t make that argument.  You did.

McWhorter actually grew up kind of bourgeois, Montessori schools, and such.  Glen Loury grew up poor and disadvantaged, like Thomas Sowell and Larry Elder.  Yet, they developed views about the world and strategies to remedy inequalities that run counter to the dominant thinking of people of their race.  I don’t think you should judge someone of the circumstances of their birth.  I find it refreshing and inspiring when people from difficult beginnings have been able to break free from that gravitational force. Perhaps I can relate to it because of my immigrant origins.  If that’s the conclusion you came to then, fine, I communicated poorly.  But, you also took the worst interpretation of what I said. 

How come you don’t know about these black thinkers?  How come I didn’t know about them until I discovered Sam Harris?  I had heard about Cornell West and Al Sharpton, but no black people who have contrary views.  Isn’t that a shame?

You seem to like them because they confirm what you already think.

 
mapadofu
 
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mapadofu
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18 July 2021 19:16
 
weird buffalo - 18 July 2021 05:55 PM
mapadofu - 18 July 2021 12:08 PM
weird buffalo - 18 July 2021 11:08 AM

If someone disagrees with Catholic orthodoxy, would you describe them as being a Catholic?

For example, I don’t believe God exists.  If I then told you I’m a Catholic, would you consider my statement to be a good description of my religious stance?

I don’t think that you want to use Catholic as your example here…

I think using “catholic” here communicates very well the point of my analogy.  If you’re having trouble with the idea I’m communicating, feel free to rephrase it, and I’ll tell you if it’s right or not.

I guess you’re unaware of the fact that there are some people who describe themselves as Catholic despite being atheists. 

Heck, I might count as one - I’ve been confirmed so my name presumably appears on some registries despite the fact that I’m an atheist. Am I Catholic?  I haven’t been excommunicated and I haven’t formally renounced the faith, so I think that in the eyes of the Church, I’m technically Catholic. But then again I’m not practicing so i don’t typically self identify that way.


Anyway, the ellipsis were meant to indicate a more light hearted take on the fact that the world is a complicated place, so even something as seemingly obviously true as “all Catholics believe in God” might not be so obviously true.

 
diding
 
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diding
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20 July 2021 08:01
 
weird buffalo - 18 July 2021 06:27 PM
diding - 18 July 2021 11:28 AM
weird buffalo - 18 July 2021 11:05 AM
diding - 18 July 2021 09:00 AM
weird buffalo - 17 July 2021 02:45 PM
diding - 17 July 2021 01:50 PM
weird buffalo - 16 July 2021 10:50 AM
diding - 16 July 2021 10:17 AM

Ha ha.  I attacked you…..  That’s funny.  Did I violence on you with my words and spellings?

 

Do you need me to explain to you some basic debate and discussion terms?  Because this statement implies that you don’t understand some basic debate and discussion terms.

I guess you’re trying to imply that I made some kind of Ad Hominemy attack upon your lived experiential bodily personhood because I compared you to Cathy “So what you’re saying is” Newman.  I recommend that you dismiss me for the knuckledragging peasant that I am.

Kind of.  I don’t really care about the content of what you said… since it was about me… and not the topic.  I could care less what you say about me, but the fact that you focus on me at all instead of the topic at hand tells me you have nothing of value to share about the topic.

You aren’t “attacking” the argument.  You’re focusing on me.  Why?  Because you have nothing of value to say.

Fair enuff.  Consider what I did as a lighthearted dig at your argumentation style.  I find it similar to what Cathy “so what your saying is” Newman did to Jordan Peterson.  She misinterprets what the other person says and twists it around.  I’m not quite as mentally agile as Peterson, so it takes me a while to recognize that chicanery.  But when I saw it, I realized why it seemed so hard to have a good faith conversation with you.  That’s why I haven’t responded to your post about blacks not working hard.  You misrepresented what I said or at very least gave it the worst interpretation.

Whenever I get on these kinds of message boards, I try to imagine I’m passing a bottle around at deer camp.

I am repeating back to you my best understanding of what you’re saying in those instance, or I am pointing out the logical conclusion that necessarily follows from the points you bring up.  If you feel those are incorrect, the response isn’t to say anything about me.  It’s to clarify what you’re saying.

Also, just because you don’t like a logical conclusion of your points and arguments, does not mean that the conclusion is wrong.  I know nothing about any of the people you keep linking… except for the things in the links.  I don’t know who they are.  I don’t know their life story.  I can only address the actual things that they say and how they present themselves.

Based on THE THINGS YOU LINK, McWhorter is not a liberal.  I said this.
You responded that he grew up poor and is black.  The only conclusion I can draw from this new information, is that YOU THINK I should judge someone based on the circumstances of their birth… AND NOT who they are now.  That conclusion is an extremely rational and logical consequence OF THE ARGUMENT YOU PRESENTED.  You presented the color of his skin as evidence for what kind of person he is.  I didn’t make that argument.  You did.

McWhorter actually grew up kind of bourgeois, Montessori schools, and such.  Glen Loury grew up poor and disadvantaged, like Thomas Sowell and Larry Elder.  Yet, they developed views about the world and strategies to remedy inequalities that run counter to the dominant thinking of people of their race.  I don’t think you should judge someone of the circumstances of their birth.  I find it refreshing and inspiring when people from difficult beginnings have been able to break free from that gravitational force. Perhaps I can relate to it because of my immigrant origins.  If that’s the conclusion you came to then, fine, I communicated poorly.  But, you also took the worst interpretation of what I said. 

How come you don’t know about these black thinkers?  How come I didn’t know about them until I discovered Sam Harris?  I had heard about Cornell West and Al Sharpton, but no black people who have contrary views.  Isn’t that a shame?

You seem to like them because they confirm what you already think.

Actually, until I discovered them, I never considered suggesting to POC’s, black people in particular, that they adopt bourgeois values.  I always assumed that such a suggestion would be insulting, as they were incapable of such aspirations given their unfair treatment in society.  I grew up in the NW suburbs of Chicago and went to a high school of 3,000+ students, I think there were only a dozen black kids.  I knew two of them from football.  They seemed like us.  They were cool and everybody wanted to be friends with them.  Then we moved to Georgia.  The black people here seemed very different.  They spoke and acted very differently.  It never occurred to me why they could be so different from my friends in the burbs. It wasn’t until much later in life that I discovered people like McWhorter, Hughes, Sowell, and Elder.  They said things that I didn’t know could be said and they seemed to make sense. What they said seemed so contrary to what I and all the white people around me in college believed, that it’s too much to expect black people to succeed.  We were all racists.  I’m glad those black thinkers are doing their best to send a different message.  I think it’s sad that what they say gets so little traction, even scorn.  Listening to them, I can hear the pain in their voices.  They wish so much better for their black brothers and sisters. 

When I encounter black people out in the country while hunting or fishing, they seem quite different than black people in the city where I live.  They seem to have much more conservative values.

[ Edited: 20 July 2021 08:06 by diding]
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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20 July 2021 10:59
 

Again… how does a black person have more conservative views… make them a liberal?

You can like whoever you want to like.  Just stop trying to blow smoke up my ass about who they are.

[ Edited: 20 July 2021 11:05 by weird buffalo]
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
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20 July 2021 12:19
 
weird buffalo - 20 July 2021 10:59 AM

Again… how does a black person have more conservative views… make them a liberal?

You can like whoever you want to like.  Just stop trying to blow smoke up my ass about who they are.

There’s a wide spectrum between what is considered liberal and what is considered conservative. I frequently hear people say that they are socially liberal, but fiscally conservative. I think this describes a lot of people in America. They are pro gay rights, pro women’s rights, pro environment, but want less government regulation and lower taxes.

So it’s not so black and white.

You and I consider ourselves to be “liberals,” but we have a very different views on certain subjects. So even within a certain political category, there is divergence.

If someone disagrees with Catholic orthodoxy, would you describe them as being a Catholic?

For example, I don’t believe God exists.  If I then told you I’m a Catholic, would you consider my statement to be a good description of my religious stance?

Again, it’s not so simple. I was raised Roman Catholic, and went to Catholic school from first grade up to graduation from high school. I would not say that I’m still Catholic in the sense you mean. I consider myself to be an agnostic. However, what I would say is that I am a Cultural Catholic. I like going into empty churches. I find them peaceful and familiar. There were many priests and nuns that I’ve met whom I admire. One of my best friends recently became a deacon. I don’t believe the dogma of the Church, but I like the basic message of Catholicism and Christianity itself, which is about love and acceptance.

So again, weird, my point is that things are not so cut and dried as you would like them to be.

 

 
 
diding
 
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diding
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20 July 2021 12:38
 
Cheshire Cat - 20 July 2021 12:19 PM
weird buffalo - 20 July 2021 10:59 AM

Again… how does a black person have more conservative views… make them a liberal?

You can like whoever you want to like.  Just stop trying to blow smoke up my ass about who they are.

There’s a wide spectrum between what is considered liberal and what is considered conservative. I frequently hear people say that they are socially liberal, but fiscally conservative. I think this describes a lot of people in America. They are pro gay rights, pro women’s rights, pro environment, but want less government regulation and lower taxes.

So it’s not so black and white.

You and I consider ourselves to be “liberals,” but we have a very different views on certain subjects. So even within a certain political category, there is divergence.

If someone disagrees with Catholic orthodoxy, would you describe them as being a Catholic?

For example, I don’t believe God exists.  If I then told you I’m a Catholic, would you consider my statement to be a good description of my religious stance?

Again, it’s not so simple. I was raised Roman Catholic, and went to Catholic school from first grade up to graduation from high school. I would not say that I’m still Catholic in the sense you mean. I consider myself to be an agnostic. However, what I would say is that I am a Cultural Catholic. I like going into empty churches. I find them peaceful and familiar. There were many priests and nuns that I’ve met whom I admire. One of my best friends recently became a deacon. I don’t believe the dogma of the Church, but I like the basic message of Catholicism and Christianity itself, which is about love and acceptance.

So again, weird, my point is that things are not so cut and dried as you would like them to be.

That’s what I was gonna say.  That’s the kind of thing McWhorter often says as well.

 
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