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Glen Loury and John McWhorter on CRT

 
diding
 
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diding
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20 July 2021 12:40
 
weird buffalo - 20 July 2021 10:59 AM

Again… how does a black person have more conservative views… make them a liberal?

You can like whoever you want to like.  Just stop trying to blow smoke up my ass about who they are.

Certain ways of thinking used to be very liberal back when I was in college that are for some bizarre reason thought of as libertarian/conservative now.

[ Edited: 20 July 2021 12:44 by diding]
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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20 July 2021 13:14
 

Again… not an argument for why I should consider someone progressive now.

You seem to care that I agree with the label.  So far, your arguments are not convincing.

If you don’t care… then there is no reason to reply to me any further on this topic.

 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
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20 July 2021 17:26
 
Nhoj Morley - 18 July 2021 10:46 AM

I just saw Mr. McWhorter on Firing Line with Margaret Hoover

He is concerned that CRT is a complex subject that requires a ‘generous take’ to understand. Folks on the right who hate it have over-simplified it. Folks on the left who love it have over-simplified it. Further nuance of CRT ruins it for both sides. Mr. McWhorter is vilified for bringing nuance to a subject when many people don’t want any.

These folks feel that no subject is fit for debate unless it has been simplified or that simplifying things is somehow a part of any problem’s solution. Some present such efforts of simplification here claiming they engaging in debate or breathing life into the forum.

I can admire Mr. McWhorter’s stance against short-scale reasoning on this or any other topic. I think he would be shocked to discover how many people are simply helpless when faced with nuance of any kind on any subject.


I just watched this video interview of John McWhorter on Firing Line also.

I think Nhoj’s analysis is spot-on.

McWhorter came across as thoughtful and reasonable to me.

McWhorter makes no bones about it right at the start of the video — he says is considers himself to be a Liberal Democrat.

Perhaps there has been a moving of the goalposts over the past decades about what the definition of being a “Liberal” means.

As diding has said:
What do you make of all these left leaning people like McWhorter and Maher being lumped in with conservatives?  Even Sam Harris gets that treatment.  They (and I) have maintained the same liberal values for decades.  I think there might need to be a term like The Original Left to classify people like us.

Perhaps there is a generational shift that has happened regarding the term. My sense is that younger people who are steeped in social media from youth, have a quicker, more knee-jerk reaction to online topics. Social media is a very swift medium. Reaction time is critical. I’m sure it must be fun surfing the online waves collecting “likes” and getting the social approval it provides. But I think its speediness makes it less conducive to critical thinking.

And then there are the Twitter Mobs — people swept into group think, scouring the internet, looking to be offended, hoping to find targets to attack. Mob behavior, is mob behavior. This is liberalism?

 
 
mapadofu
 
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mapadofu
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20 July 2021 17:43
 

Maybe it is that the “being a Democrat” part of the statement has shifted rightward over the years. https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2012/05/01/reversing-polarisation

 
weird buffalo
 
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20 July 2021 17:56
 

A fair number of “democrats” are not very progressive, and often defend the status quo.

 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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21 July 2021 21:54
 
Nhoj Morley - 18 July 2021 10:46 AM

I just saw Mr. McWhorter on Firing Line with Margaret Hoover

He is concerned that CRT is a complex subject that requires a ‘generous take’ to understand. Folks on the right who hate it have over-simplified it. Folks on the left who love it have over-simplified it. Further nuance of CRT ruins it for both sides. Mr. McWhorter is vilified for bringing nuance to a subject when many people don’t want any.

Advocates of CRT invite this kind of oversimplified characterization with their “motte and bailey” rhetorical trick. Folks on the left emphasize the “motte” and pretend the “bailey” doesn’t exist. Folks on the right ignore the “motte” and focus strictly on the “bailey.”

Cheshire Cat - 20 July 2021 05:26 PM

And then there are the Twitter Mobs — people swept into group think, scouring the internet, looking to be offended, hoping to find targets to attack. Mob behavior, is mob behavior. This is liberalism?

Are they really mobs? Or does it only seem that way because of the medium? My understanding is that a small number of fanatics on the fringe of both sides drive Twitter. Both parties make the mistake of thinking this fringe represents the mainstream. Result: party agendas are increasingly driven by a small minority of loudmouth assholes.

 
 
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22 July 2021 10:48
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 21 July 2021 09:54 PM
Nhoj Morley - 18 July 2021 10:46 AM

I just saw Mr. McWhorter on Firing Line with Margaret Hoover

He is concerned that CRT is a complex subject that requires a ‘generous take’ to understand. Folks on the right who hate it have over-simplified it. Folks on the left who love it have over-simplified it. Further nuance of CRT ruins it for both sides. Mr. McWhorter is vilified for bringing nuance to a subject when many people don’t want any.

Advocates of CRT invite this kind of oversimplified characterization with their “motte and bailey” rhetorical trick. Folks on the left emphasize the “motte” and pretend the “bailey” doesn’t exist. Folks on the right ignore the “motte” and focus strictly on the “bailey.”

Cheshire Cat - 20 July 2021 05:26 PM

And then there are the Twitter Mobs — people swept into group think, scouring the internet, looking to be offended, hoping to find targets to attack. Mob behavior, is mob behavior. This is liberalism?

Are they really mobs? Or does it only seem that way because of the medium? My understanding is that a small number of fanatics on the fringe of both sides drive Twitter. Both parties make the mistake of thinking this fringe represents the mainstream. Result: party agendas are increasingly driven by a small minority of loudmouth assholes.

That’s right.  Most regular people would look at the conversations here and recognize that there is a far left stance on most issues brought up.  Here’s Glen Greenwald talking to Coleman Hughes about the difference between how elites discuss thing vs. regular folks. 

https://youtu.be/kbVH628Z8SA?t=2419

I think he’s spot on. When I do work for elites, they often say things that they think I will automatically agree with.  Either they’re virtue signalling to a POC or they assume that as a POC, I must share their views on politics.  I just recently got most of my tools boosted off a job site.  The next day the homeowner said something about people who commit crime are forced to.  She said that to me as I was rolling around in the rat shit of her crawlspace.

 
lynmc
 
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23 July 2021 10:21
 
diding - 22 July 2021 10:48 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 21 July 2021 09:54 PM
Nhoj Morley - 18 July 2021 10:46 AM

I just saw Mr. McWhorter on Firing Line with Margaret Hoover

He is concerned that CRT is a complex subject that requires a ‘generous take’ to understand. Folks on the right who hate it have over-simplified it. Folks on the left who love it have over-simplified it. Further nuance of CRT ruins it for both sides. Mr. McWhorter is vilified for bringing nuance to a subject when many people don’t want any.

Advocates of CRT invite this kind of oversimplified characterization with their “motte and bailey” rhetorical trick. Folks on the left emphasize the “motte” and pretend the “bailey” doesn’t exist. Folks on the right ignore the “motte” and focus strictly on the “bailey.”

Cheshire Cat - 20 July 2021 05:26 PM

And then there are the Twitter Mobs — people swept into group think, scouring the internet, looking to be offended, hoping to find targets to attack. Mob behavior, is mob behavior. This is liberalism?

Are they really mobs? Or does it only seem that way because of the medium? My understanding is that a small number of fanatics on the fringe of both sides drive Twitter. Both parties make the mistake of thinking this fringe represents the mainstream. Result: party agendas are increasingly driven by a small minority of loudmouth assholes.

That’s right.  Most regular people would look at the conversations here and recognize that there is a far left stance on most issues brought up.  Here’s Glen Greenwald talking to Coleman Hughes about the difference between how elites discuss thing vs. regular folks. 

https://youtu.be/kbVH628Z8SA?t=2419

I think he’s spot on. When I do work for elites, they often say things that they think I will automatically agree with.  Either they’re virtue signalling to a POC or they assume that as a POC, I must share their views on politics.  I just recently got most of my tools boosted off a job site.  The next day the homeowner said something about people who commit crime are forced to.  She said that to me as I was rolling around in the rat shit of her crawlspace.

Yeah, I like Glenn Greenwald.  I still think McWhorter makes hash of his argument.  For example, he apparently gets a lot of complaints about white kids being made to feel guilty about historical wrongs white people have done, and then says something like, if that many black men had been shot by police it would be non-stop national news.  Really?  Those poor white kids, being made to feel guilty.  Well, sometimes I get tired of white people going on about how oppressed they are.  I don’t think that’s how I, as a white person, should be defined as historically oppressed by being made to feel guilty.

On the other hand, McWhorter is right when he says there’s hyperbole on both sides (to paraphrase).  For example, some one said Ibram Kendi claimed that math is racist or that black kids making mistakes in math shouldn’t be corrected (I think McWhorter said something to that effect).  In an internet search, I could not find that Kendi actually made the claim that math is racist, just multiple claims from right-wing sources that he did.  Not saying he didn’t say something like that, just that if he did it’s hard to find the original quote.

The closest I came was some math teaching guidelines from some Oregon school being sold as anti-racist, but when you looked at the guidelines themselves they had nothing to do with race.  One of the guidelines said that teachers should emphasize understanding concepts, another that mistakes should be viewed as learning opportunities.  I’m not a pedagogical expert but these seem like decent guidelines, though they were (rather ridiculously) described in the material as anti-racist while they had nothing to do with race.  Neither do they say black kids’ mistakes shouldn’t be corrected or anything like that.

Anyway, even though McWhorter came across a lot better in the Firing Line interview (I totally agree with him on the drug policy), but as an intellectual I think he’s lacking.

 
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