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American Booksellers Assoc. vs. “Irreversible Damage, The Transgender Craze Seducing our Daughters”

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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15 July 2021 22:59
 

Summary: The ABA sent a bunch of these books out (by mistake?), an outrage ensued, and they issued an apology. Now most of the media is saying their apology didn’t go far enough.

Anyone have any opinions about the book and/or the topic of “rapid onset gender dysphoria” that the book discusses?

Should the ABA have apologized?

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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16 July 2021 07:11
 

If a book distributer started sending copies of “Day of the Rope” to book stores, I would assume that they were pro-Nazi ideology.  While “Irreversible Damage” is not AS bad as “Day of the Rope”, it definitely leans heavily in that direction in regards to ideas about trans people.

The ABA doesn’t have to apologize.  Heck, they can choose to distribute that book if they choose.  They will be associating themselves with pro-transphobic activists though.

If they don’t want to associate themselves with transphobia, then an apology is probably a good tactic.

For example, if you started linking to stormfront threads, I would assume you were a neo-nazi, unless you gave a fucking ton of context.  It’s one of those “you are what you eat” kind of associations.  Don’t want to be known as a neo-nazi?  Then not linking to stormfront is a good idea.

If you disagree, please feel free to provide some context from the book and tell us why it is important that it be discussed.  Specifically defend the book on it’s merits.  I don’t want to hear an argument that the book is allowed to exist. It already exists and has been published.  That argument is already settled.  The argument right now you are fighting is that book deserves to be distributed without consequences and should be part of the discourse.  So please, give us some context from the book and why it deserves to be read.

[ Edited: 16 July 2021 07:36 by weird buffalo]
 
mapadofu
 
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mapadofu
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16 July 2021 07:48
 

I haven’t heard about this.  Who all is “most of the media” and are they really demanding an apology?


Note that there is a difference between demanding an apology and reporting that the people offended by this are demanding an apology.  The latter seems more likely to be what’s going on; to the extent that this is even getting coverage.

[ Edited: 16 July 2021 09:10 by mapadofu]
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
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16 July 2021 12:06
 

Boy, oh boy. If you ever want to swat with a baseball bat the hornets nest of ire from the far left, this is the way to do it:

Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters is a 2020 book by Abigail Shrier, by Regnery Publishing. The book endorses the contentious concept of rapid onset gender dysphoria,[1][2][3] which is not recognized as a medical entity by any major professional institution.[4][5] Shrier states that there was a “sudden, severe spike in transgender identification” among teenagers assigned female at birth[note 1] during the 2010s.[6] She attributes this to a social contagion among “high-anxiety, depressive (mostly white) girls who, in previous decades, fell prey to anorexia and bulimia or multiple personality disorder”.[6][7] Shrier also criticizes gender-affirming psychiatric support, hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery (together often referred to as gender-affirming care) as treatment for gender dysphoria in young people.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreversible_Damage

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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16 July 2021 13:28
 

I have not read the book myself, but I have read excerpts, and analysis of the book.  The book isn’t just an affront to progressive values, but to scientifically honest values as well.  Several chapters of the book essentially rely on forum posts as evidence.  The people who have endorsed the book are those with a political axe to grind.  No serious professional in a relevant academic field would take this book seriously (medical, psychological, sociological, or psychiatric)

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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18 July 2021 16:37
 
weird buffalo - 16 July 2021 01:28 PM

I have not read the book myself, but I have read excerpts, and analysis of the book.  The book isn’t just an affront to progressive values, but to scientifically honest values as well.  Several chapters of the book essentially rely on forum posts as evidence.  The people who have endorsed the book are those with a political axe to grind.  No serious professional in a relevant academic field would take this book seriously (medical, psychological, sociological, or psychiatric)

Can I infer from you post that you view RODG as settled science? Because underage (mostly girls), can go under the knife to be “cured”.

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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18 July 2021 18:35
 
icehorse - 18 July 2021 04:37 PM
weird buffalo - 16 July 2021 01:28 PM

I have not read the book myself, but I have read excerpts, and analysis of the book.  The book isn’t just an affront to progressive values, but to scientifically honest values as well.  Several chapters of the book essentially rely on forum posts as evidence.  The people who have endorsed the book are those with a political axe to grind.  No serious professional in a relevant academic field would take this book seriously (medical, psychological, sociological, or psychiatric)

Can I infer from you post that you view RODG as settled science? Because underage (mostly girls), can go under the knife to be “cured”.

Going to need to see a source that children are having gender surgeries.

These guidelines, from medical professionals, do NOT recommend surgical options for adolescents.

So, unless you’ve got evidence that this happening and is recommended by medical professionals, I’m going to dismiss your statement.  If you insist on it (without evidence), it will be a piece of evidence of your transphobia.

Again, I suggest you critically investigate this book.  Bring us an excerpt that you thinks shows that it should be taken seriously.

Edit: just to add some more to show that your question is uninformed and based on false assumptions:
source

The association advises that “moving from one stage to another should not occur until there has been adequate time for adolescents and their parents to assimilate fully the effects of earlier interventions.” Genital surgery should not happen until the individual reaches the age of majority to give consent in a given country and have lived continuously for at least 12 months in their gender identity, the association said.

Medical professionals who specialize in this subject, absolutely do NOT recommend what you claim is happening.  So, the medical profession is NOT doing the thing you claim it is doing.

[ Edited: 18 July 2021 18:47 by weird buffalo]
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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19 July 2021 12:03
 
weird buffalo - 18 July 2021 06:35 PM
icehorse - 18 July 2021 04:37 PM
weird buffalo - 16 July 2021 01:28 PM

I have not read the book myself, but I have read excerpts, and analysis of the book.  The book isn’t just an affront to progressive values, but to scientifically honest values as well.  Several chapters of the book essentially rely on forum posts as evidence.  The people who have endorsed the book are those with a political axe to grind.  No serious professional in a relevant academic field would take this book seriously (medical, psychological, sociological, or psychiatric)

Can I infer from you post that you view RODG as settled science? Because underage (mostly girls), can go under the knife to be “cured”.

Going to need to see a source that children are having gender surgeries.

These guidelines, from medical professionals, do NOT recommend surgical options for adolescents.

So, unless you’ve got evidence that this happening and is recommended by medical professionals, I’m going to dismiss your statement.  If you insist on it (without evidence), it will be a piece of evidence of your transphobia.

Again, I suggest you critically investigate this book.  Bring us an excerpt that you thinks shows that it should be taken seriously.

Edit: just to add some more to show that your question is uninformed and based on false assumptions:
source

The association advises that “moving from one stage to another should not occur until there has been adequate time for adolescents and their parents to assimilate fully the effects of earlier interventions.” Genital surgery should not happen until the individual reaches the age of majority to give consent in a given country and have lived continuously for at least 12 months in their gender identity, the association said.

Medical professionals who specialize in this subject, absolutely do NOT recommend what you claim is happening.  So, the medical profession is NOT doing the thing you claim it is doing.

Just a few minutes of digging before I go back to work, uncovered this. It looks like such surgeries are becoming big business:

surgery $$

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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19 July 2021 12:39
 

This isn’t something people do on a whim.  It’s not a haircut or piercing or even a tattoo.  It’s a long process that isn’t taken lightly.

Like doctor assisted suicide.  Folks don’t walk out of their first appointment armed with the death juice.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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19 July 2021 12:58
 
LadyJane - 19 July 2021 12:39 PM

This isn’t something people do on a whim.  It’s not a haircut or piercing or even a tattoo.  It’s a long process that isn’t taken lightly.

Like doctor assisted suicide.  Folks don’t walk out of their first appointment armed with the death juice.

I’m sure that that’s often the case. But according to author Abigail Shrier - who is admittedly controversial - far too often underage girls fall under the sway of a sort of peer pressure that might not be real.

To be clear… if an adult goes through a long, thoughtful process, I’ve got no issue.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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19 July 2021 13:16
 

Then you are wasting time worrying about underage girls doing things they aren’t even doing.

Is this really a news item?  Maybe just spend less time thinking about underage girls.

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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19 July 2021 14:45
 
icehorse - 19 July 2021 12:03 PM
weird buffalo - 18 July 2021 06:35 PM
icehorse - 18 July 2021 04:37 PM
weird buffalo - 16 July 2021 01:28 PM

I have not read the book myself, but I have read excerpts, and analysis of the book.  The book isn’t just an affront to progressive values, but to scientifically honest values as well.  Several chapters of the book essentially rely on forum posts as evidence.  The people who have endorsed the book are those with a political axe to grind.  No serious professional in a relevant academic field would take this book seriously (medical, psychological, sociological, or psychiatric)

Can I infer from you post that you view RODG as settled science? Because underage (mostly girls), can go under the knife to be “cured”.

Going to need to see a source that children are having gender surgeries.

These guidelines, from medical professionals, do NOT recommend surgical options for adolescents.

So, unless you’ve got evidence that this happening and is recommended by medical professionals, I’m going to dismiss your statement.  If you insist on it (without evidence), it will be a piece of evidence of your transphobia.

Again, I suggest you critically investigate this book.  Bring us an excerpt that you thinks shows that it should be taken seriously.

Edit: just to add some more to show that your question is uninformed and based on false assumptions:
source

The association advises that “moving from one stage to another should not occur until there has been adequate time for adolescents and their parents to assimilate fully the effects of earlier interventions.” Genital surgery should not happen until the individual reaches the age of majority to give consent in a given country and have lived continuously for at least 12 months in their gender identity, the association said.

Medical professionals who specialize in this subject, absolutely do NOT recommend what you claim is happening.  So, the medical profession is NOT doing the thing you claim it is doing.

Just a few minutes of digging before I go back to work, uncovered this. It looks like such surgeries are becoming big business:

surgery $$

Where does it say they’re performing these on children?  Because your claim/question was about children.  Statistics about adults are irrelevant to what you said about children.

You tried to fear monger about something happening to UNDERAGE girls.  If you don’t have evidence to support your claim that this actually happening, then at best you are falling prey to rhetorical tricks intended to instill transphobia in you.  At worst, you’re just being transphobic.

[ Edited: 19 July 2021 14:48 by weird buffalo]
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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19 July 2021 17:06
 

weird:

At worst, you’re just being transphobic.

No, but I’m happy to coop to being progressive / woke - phobic smile

As for your doctors’ recommendations, as I’ve said before, I’m less interested in the theory and more on the practice.

The book has 3,755 ratings with an average of 4.5 stars. It is routinely reviewed as being well researched.

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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19 July 2021 20:41
 
icehorse - 19 July 2021 05:06 PM

weird:

At worst, you’re just being transphobic.

No, but I’m happy to coop to being progressive / woke - phobic smile

As for your doctors’ recommendations, as I’ve said before, I’m less interested in the theory and more on the practice.

The book has 3,755 ratings with an average of 4.5 stars. It is routinely reviewed as being well researched.

You are so full of shit.

You’ve now convinced me that you’re a transphobic asshole.

 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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20 July 2021 13:33
 
icehorse - 19 July 2021 12:58 PM

... if an adult goes through a long, thoughtful process, I’ve got no issue.

Four simple words solve this concern:  Informed Legal Medical Consent.

 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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22 July 2021 19:32
 

I haven’t read Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters, nor do I intend to. But I did spend some time looking at a youtube interview of the author, Abigail Shrier, on the libertarian Reason website. Although I not a fan of libertarianism, the host Nick Gillespie, asked some good questions.

https://reason.com/video/2021/07/13/abigail-shrier-worries-teenage-gender-transitions-lead-to-irreversible-damage/

The main question of the book is if onset gender dysphoria is the latest hysterical teenage girl “craze,” similar to way anorexia and bulimia were in the 70s and 80s?

Girls identifying as trans went from 0.3 percent up to 2.0 percent in recent years. That’s a very large increase. Why?

One reason she gives is the Contagion Theory. The communication style of teenage girls is mainly to be agreeable and empathize with each others’ pain and reality, even if it isn’t factually true. Certain young women decide that their main problem is “being a boy trapped inside a girls body,” then spread this notion throughout their peer group, who take this to be true for themselves as well. Shrier says that there have always been transsexuals, but they historically have never become this way because of peer influence. This is something totally new. These susceptible girls are suffering from mental health problems such as high levels of anxiety and depression, and can easily be swayed by social media influencers. Shrier also says that teachers, the media, peers, and the culture at large are encouraging these girls to sexually transition.

At the 10:11-10:30 segment of the video, Shrier claims that there is no medical oversight for these girls, including psychological evaluation. A process that used to take years can start in a day with girls walking into clinics and picking up a course of testosterone. She goes into more detail from 17:04-17:22 and 17:35-18:20.

From 13:11-14:31 she describes the difficulty girls experience during puberty. The implication being, that being male seems like a better option than being female, which she details at 15:31-16:13.

The second half of the video mainly deals with “radical transgender activists,” and censorship of the book.

I think the main takeaway point that she is making in her book, is not to discourage adults from becoming trans, but, to discourage underage girls from making a rapid and life altering change to their bodies, particularly by taking testosterone and breast binding. These can have lasting effects including, according to Shier, asexuality and problems with reproduction later in life.

Is sounding the alarm that underage girls may not be mature enough to make life altering decisions about their bodies transphobic? Is merely breaching the topic worthy of censorship?

I’ve never been big on censorship. I think people should have a right to state their case as long as they have proof to back it up. And I also think it is absolutely right to take Shier’s claims and research and criticize them if they are factually wrong. But are they wrong? Are some of them true? I do wonder about her claim that it is relatively easy for girls to get prescription testosterone without medical oversight. Is it? Also, where are the parents when these girls are altering their bodies so dramatically? But then again, the sudden rise in girls claiming to be “trans” is more than a little alarming. This shouldn’t be taken lightly, nor brushed aside.

 
 
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