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American Booksellers Assoc. vs. “Irreversible Damage, The Transgender Craze Seducing our Daughters”

 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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23 July 2021 05:27
 

What sources did she cite?

For example, I can cite a source to tell you about knee and hip surgery prevalence in the UK.  It took me 10 seconds to find that.  Show me a source about how many surgeries are being performed.  I’ve already linked sources that indicate ZERO surgeries are being performed on children.

Are you seriously suggesting that an increase from ZERO surgeries to ZERO surgeries is something that should even be a topic of disucssion? Show me statistics on CHILDREN getting gender surgery, or SHUT THE FUCK UP.

New Book “Irreversible Damage” Is Full of Misinformation
Cognitive behaviorist perspective on the book.
A trans person talking about the book and the effect of similar views on legislation.
Someone taking a look at the scientific evidence contained in the book.

The book’s central message is almost identical to claims that gay men will recruit your child into being gay, and so therefore, gay people are bad.  This isn’t just an analogy to be descriptive, it is a direct analogy with just changing the terms.

[ Edited: 23 July 2021 05:41 by weird buffalo]
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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23 July 2021 07:25
 

By the way…

Current studies on regret and transitioning indicate that only 1% of those who have had surgery regret it afterwards. So, that’s 1 in a 100 regrets their surgery.

In contrast, 1 in 5 people regret knee surgery, and yet almost no one is talking about how we need to ban knee surgeries to save people from this epidemic.

Broadly speaking, 1 in 7 patients regret surgery overall.  Which means that typically, people who have gender surgeries are far happier than people getting other “normal” surgeries.

[ Edited: 23 July 2021 07:28 by weird buffalo]
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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23 July 2021 07:25
 

This is another thread in a pattern of threads with false flag titles to create a fearmongering frenzy.  A pre-offended take on something that may not be offensive.  Just deliberately misunderstood.  Any meaningful discussion about a book usually begins by reading the book.

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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23 July 2021 09:28
 

The core argument in her book is that social media influences people to be transgender.  This is the exact same argument that was made against gay people in previous decades.  Gay men would corrupt the youth and turn them gay.  Lesbian women would seduce young girls and turn them into lesbians.  Now, it’s trans youtubers make being trans cool, and so kids become trans.

The homophobia of such arguments is clear.  The transphobia of this argument is also clear.  Kids becoming trans is a bad thing.  Why?  It can only be a bad thing if being trans is bad.  Transphobia is central to the argument.  The argument hinges on transphobia being legitimate.

 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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23 July 2021 10:09
 

These flashy titles may be as far as people read.  Those willing to spend time debunking the nonsense know better than to take it at face value, especially coming from a chronically deceptive poster, yet for some the seed is planted.  And we see the growing ignorance.

The same threads are also usually started at another forum.  A forum frequented by several trans posters.  In this case it wasn’t.  If this was a sincere inquiry there’d be no reason to break that habit now or shy away from discussing it with the people it’s about.

It’s a clue.  Following a lengthy history of being called transphobic.  And wearing out of welcomes.

 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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23 July 2021 11:45
 
weird buffalo - 23 July 2021 05:27 AM

I’ve already linked sources that indicate ZERO surgeries are being performed on children.

I seriously doubt that you bothered to look at the youtube clips I attached to my post. You didn’t, did you? I think this, because she never once says that underage girls are getting sex realignment surgery. You are assuming this.

As I mentioned before, from the interview I watched, she brings up two points:

First, why has the percentage of underage girls claiming to be trans gone from 0.3% to 2.0% recently?

Shier gives plausible reasons for this. If you disagree, then can you give me an alternate reason that explains this uptick?

And second, she is to discouraging underage girls from making a rapid and life altering change to their bodies, by taking testosterone and breast binding.

I haven’t read the book, I’m going on her youtube interview. She doesn’t strike me as transphobic, merely concerned that underage, immature and neurotic adolescent girls may be making decisions about their bodies that they may regret later on. This seems like a reasonable concern to me. Perhaps she is more radical in her book, but she seems pretty sane in the interview. And I don’t see any harm in waiting until the age of adulthood, age 18, before making life altering decisions. Do you?

P.S.
Don’t ever tell me to shut the fuck up.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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23 July 2021 12:00
 
Cheshire Cat - 23 July 2021 11:45 AM

First, why has the percentage of underage girls claiming to be trans gone from 0.3% to 2.0% recently?

Guessing/Anecdotal:  More trans people are ‘out’ and there are groups fighting for their equality and dignity.  Like being gay, it is much less likely that being ‘out’ as a trans person will lead to physical and emotional attack, and loss of housing, jobs, or other societal privileges (...in some cases.  This danger still exists in pockets of society, so it should not be treated as trivial.)

Cheshire Cat - 23 July 2021 11:45 AM

And second, she is to discouraging underage girls from making a rapid and life altering change to their bodies, by taking testosterone and breast binding.

Not Guessing/Not Anecdotal: Testosterone is not prescribed trivially just because a person walks into a clinic and asks for it. There are consultations required for actual medical testosterone, which either comes in the form of a topical cream application, or an injectable (which are both controlled medications…IIRC)

Binding does no lasting harm to girls if done correctly with a medically approved and safely fitted binder.  Done ‘at home’, ‘in secret’ without medical guidance, can cause physical harm due to reduced circulation and tissue compression.  This, then, becomes an argument for supportive professional help with selecting a good binder. 

I reiterate my 4 words: Informed Legal Medical Consent.

 

[ Edited: 23 July 2021 12:30 by Jefe]
 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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23 July 2021 13:34
 
Cheshire Cat - 23 July 2021 11:45 AM
weird buffalo - 23 July 2021 05:27 AM

I’ve already linked sources that indicate ZERO surgeries are being performed on children.

I seriously doubt that you bothered to look at the youtube clips I attached to my post. You didn’t, did you? I think this, because she never once says that underage girls are getting sex realignment surgery. You are assuming this.

As I mentioned before, from the interview I watched, she brings up two points:

First, why has the percentage of underage girls claiming to be trans gone from 0.3% to 2.0% recently?

Shier gives plausible reasons for this. If you disagree, then can you give me an alternate reason that explains this uptick?

And second, she is to discouraging underage girls from making a rapid and life altering change to their bodies, by taking testosterone and breast binding.

I haven’t read the book, I’m going on her youtube interview. She doesn’t strike me as transphobic, merely concerned that underage, immature and neurotic adolescent girls may be making decisions about their bodies that they may regret later on. This seems like a reasonable concern to me. Perhaps she is more radical in her book, but she seems pretty sane in the interview. And I don’t see any harm in waiting until the age of adulthood, age 18, before making life altering decisions. Do you?

P.S.
Don’t ever tell me to shut the fuck up.

If you’re going to uncritically repeat transphobic lies, then yes, I’m going to tell you to SHUT THE FUCK UP until the admins force me not to.

A muslim has a story that sufficiently explains the creation of the universe.  Does that mean you’re going to believe it as true until I come up with a better one?

Here’s a 7 hour playlist that goes chapter by chapter dissecting the book.
I’ve watched (and linked) other videos as well.  I’m telling you right now, if you don’t want to sit through hours of research or critically analyze her book, something that I’ve done…. HER BOOK IS BULLSHIT.  It’s all bullshit.  It is extremely transphobic and it uses bullshit in order to support that transphobia.

If you think the book should be taken seriously, please give me an example of a claim you think is legitimate.  My follow up question is going to be “how do you know that this claim is true?”  If you do not provide evidence to back up the claim, then all you are doing is REPEATING BULLSHIT, at which point, you should just shut the fuck up.

The book is pushing an ideological agenda that intentionally enables discrimination against transpeople.

[ Edited: 23 July 2021 13:36 by weird buffalo]
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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23 July 2021 13:44
 
Jefe - 23 July 2021 12:00 PM

Guessing/Anecdotal:  More trans people are ‘out’ and there are groups fighting for their equality and dignity.  Like being gay, it is much less likely that being ‘out’ as a trans person will lead to physical and emotional attack, and loss of housing, jobs, or other societal privileges (...in some cases.  This danger still exists in pockets of society, so it should not be treated as trivial.)

Not Guessing/Not Anecdotal: Testosterone is not prescribed trivially just because a person walks into a clinic and asks for it. There are consultations required for actual medical testosterone, which either comes in the form of a topical cream application, or an injectable (which are both controlled medications…IIRC)

Binding does no lasting harm to girls if done correctly with a medically approved and safely fitted binder.  Done ‘at home’, ‘in secret’ without medical guidance, can cause physical harm due to reduced circulation and tissue compression.  This, then, becomes an argument for supportive professional help with selecting a good binder. 

I reiterate my 4 words: Informed Legal Medical Consent.

To your first point, yes, maybe this is a reason. I just watched Shier being interviewed by Joe Rogan on youtube. Shier does mention that there has been a hundred years worth of data on people with gender dysphoria, and it has always hovered between 0.1 and 0.3 percent of the population. Rogan says something similar to what you said, that trans people have had to hide themselves and that now they are freer to come out, there are more of them. Shier replies that if this were true, trans people in their 30s, 40s, 50s would now be getting gender reassignment surgery since nothing is holding them back. But they are not.

To your second point, I too, would assume that it’s not that easy to get testosterone. But Shier says this is not so. She mentions that an transgender organization named WPATH in 2012 somehow managed to get rules loosened about hormone therapy, or at least, that’s the way I’m interpreting it. She mentions that being the age of medical consent, which varies by state, and implementation of something called the “informed consent model,” allows people to get these substances without oversight. I don’t know the details or understand how it works. I’m simply conveying what Shier claims.

I’m attaching the Rogan youtube segment concerning this if you want to watch it. It’s only a few minutes long. Make of it what you will.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/SUPHqTkL5Nw?start=287&end=430

 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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23 July 2021 13:50
 
weird buffalo - 23 July 2021 01:34 PM

If you’re going to uncritically repeat transphobic lies, then yes, I’m going to tell you to SHUT THE FUCK UP until the admins force me not to.

Well moderators?

Is this a reasonable post?

Nhoj? Martin? LJ?

 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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23 July 2021 13:50
 

You can get WPATH’s standards of care here. If you’d like to read them yourself.  The criteria for hormone therapy that they propose has 4 criteria:

Initiation of hormone therapy may be undertaken after a psychosocial assessment has been
conducted and informed consent has been obtained by a qualified health professional, as outlined
in section VII of the SOC. A referral is required from the mental health professional who performed
the assessment, unless the assessment was done by a hormone provider who is also qualified in
this area.

1. Persistent, well-documented gender dysphoria;
2. Capacity to make a fully informed decision and to consent for treatment;
3. Age of majority in a given country (if younger, follow the SOC outlined in section VI);
4. If significant medical or mental health concerns are present, they must be reasonably wellcontrolled.

Is there a part of this that you think is bad?  The medical profession itself has routine and constant oversight.  We also have lots of rules for how to sue doctors for malpractice, so if parents believe that a doctor is mistreating their child in regards to gender counseling, they can always avail themselves for malpractice.

If I get booted from these forums for calling out obvious transphobic behavior, I have zero issues with that.

[ Edited: 23 July 2021 13:54 by weird buffalo]
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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23 July 2021 13:57
 
weird buffalo - 23 July 2021 01:50 PM

You can get WPATH’s standards of care here. If you’d like to read them yourself.  The criteria for hormone therapy that they propose has 4 criteria:

Initiation of hormone therapy may be undertaken after a psychosocial assessment has been
conducted and informed consent has been obtained by a qualified health professional, as outlined
in section VII of the SOC. A referral is required from the mental health professional who performed
the assessment, unless the assessment was done by a hormone provider who is also qualified in
this area.

1. Persistent, well-documented gender dysphoria;
2. Capacity to make a fully informed decision and to consent for treatment;
3. Age of majority in a given country (if younger, follow the SOC outlined in section VI);
4. If significant medical or mental health concerns are present, they must be reasonably wellcontrolled.

Is there a part of this that you think is bad?  The medical profession itself has routine and constant oversight.  We also have lots of rules for how to sue doctors for malpractice, so if parents believe that a doctor is mistreating their child in regards to gender counseling, they can always avail themselves for malpractice.

If I get booted from these forums for calling out obvious transphobic behavior, I have zero issues with that.

The age of medical consent is 15 in Oregon.

Do you think you were mature enough to make a major decision about changing your sex at that age?

I guess the moderators are napping.

I hadn’t thought of this before. But perhaps you are only fifteen years old.

With your name calling and pouting, you certainly act like it.

[ Edited: 23 July 2021 14:01 by Cheshire Cat]
 
 
weird buffalo
 
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weird buffalo
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23 July 2021 14:04
 
Cheshire Cat - 23 July 2021 01:57 PM
weird buffalo - 23 July 2021 01:50 PM

You can get WPATH’s standards of care here. If you’d like to read them yourself.  The criteria for hormone therapy that they propose has 4 criteria:

Initiation of hormone therapy may be undertaken after a psychosocial assessment has been
conducted and informed consent has been obtained by a qualified health professional, as outlined
in section VII of the SOC. A referral is required from the mental health professional who performed
the assessment, unless the assessment was done by a hormone provider who is also qualified in
this area.

1. Persistent, well-documented gender dysphoria;
2. Capacity to make a fully informed decision and to consent for treatment;
3. Age of majority in a given country (if younger, follow the SOC outlined in section VI);
4. If significant medical or mental health concerns are present, they must be reasonably wellcontrolled.

Is there a part of this that you think is bad?  The medical profession itself has routine and constant oversight.  We also have lots of rules for how to sue doctors for malpractice, so if parents believe that a doctor is mistreating their child in regards to gender counseling, they can always avail themselves for malpractice.

If I get booted from these forums for calling out obvious transphobic behavior, I have zero issues with that.

The age of medical consent is 15 in Oregon.

Do you think you were mature enough to make a major decision about changing your sex at that age?

I guess the moderators are napping.

The age of consent is an arbitrary number.

The decision of inaction, and allowing puberty to take it’s course is a life-altering decision.  Do you think the government should make this decision for people?  Or should people be allowed to do it in consultation with their doctor, with guidelines set by professional organizations who study this issue as their career?

To me, it’s just like abortion and vaccines.  How I feel about someone else’s decision is irrelevant.  They should be allowed to make an informed decision with the help of medical professionals.  It’s their body.

In addition, studies show that these treatments reduce the rate of suicide in teens.

Shrier’s arguments, if implemented as government policy, will lead to continued suicides by transgendered teens.  So yeah, I find these arguments pretty fucking disgusting, and I take offense to the idea that they should be seriously considered.  Why?  Because transphobia has cost people their lives.

 
Cheshire Cat
 
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23 July 2021 14:10
 
weird buffalo - 23 July 2021 02:04 PM

The age of consent is an arbitrary number.

The age of consent is not arbitrary. It is well established in law. It is designed to protect children who do not yet possess the critical faculties to make life altering and lasting decisions.

Your argument is becoming absurd.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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23 July 2021 14:13
 
Cheshire Cat - 23 July 2021 01:57 PM

I guess the moderators are napping.

Take it easy. 

Of course we shouldn’t be telling each other to shut the fuck up.  It exhibits the sort of emotion that threads like these are aiming to exploit.  I understand the frustration.  If there’s a conversation to be had then stick to the topic and let’s maintain our composure so the point isn’t lost.   

Please carry on.

 
 
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