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Is the subconscious worth examining?

 
181200
 
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181200
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01 January 2008 19:06
 

Hi everyone. I have recently gained interest in San Harris and his readings, and I figure his forum would have the right people to discuss my experience with meditation. (Bare with me please as this is my first post here and I am only 23)

I have always been interested in the mind and what it can do. 3 years back I began reading different articles/books on meditation. So I began summer of morning mediations. The first week or 2 I did notice a ‘clearness’ and a mental energy which was not their before. Their was almost a euphoric feeling after each meditation which had me looking forward to the next days session.

Week 2 and 3 I began to notice wondrous and yet very strange changes in my perception of things. Up until that moment my perception was everything (Mind, Body, Soul) was simply me. But as I went deeper into my meditation, The best way I can describe my experience was, I began to notice a separation of the different compartments of myself working together. As I felt that ‘Myself’ was watching everything I was doing from a different view.

I also noticed that (Believe this or not) I was consciously aware that I was dreaming, and on more then 1 occasion was able to manipulate my dreams. Another thing I noticed was I was now able to do certain things better, which I normally was not good at.

I began to wonder what I was actually tapping into, When I began to make sense in my mind what exactly was the outcome of these meditations, it scared the hell out of me lol .. I have never meditated since.

To this date I am not sure if what I experienced with normal practice of deep meditation or a moment of delusion.

I was wondering if there are other members of this forum that have experimented with deep meditation, what happened with them, what were there thoughts of it .. And if you believe there is something within the unknown of the subconscious worth examining as a science?

[ Edited: 01 January 2008 19:31 by 181200]
 
CanZen
 
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CanZen
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01 January 2008 21:24
 

Hey 181200, since you opened your post with an invitation to get naked with you (“bare with me . . . .you meant ‘bear with me’), I will jump right in.  As a person who has lost his mind (literally) I can appreciate what you are saying.  You see I actually do not “have” a mind, but I do enjoy dabbling in the subconscious.  If I’ve confused you let me try to be more clear (and naked) . . . I have discovered through a form of meditation that I am essentially a conscious body with the capacity to have a whole range of human experiences (perceptive, emotional, informative, etc.) and with the ability to put these unique experiences into linguistic expressions: that is all of what I am, there is no such thing as a mind somewhere in my being that does anything at all.  I do have a physical brain and this incredible organ does all those things that I had mistakenly projected onto my mind, when I still thought that I had one, that is.  Naturally, this brain is my minding organ and it pays attention to (it minds) all of the sensual, perceptual, emotional, corporal, informational, conceptual, and linguistic streams that manage to permeate through my conscious body. 

I don’t think there is anything to fear from meditation, as long as you don’t persist in believing that you have a mind.  You see 181200, if you believe that, it’s not much of a jump to the next belief in that slippery slope - that you have a soul.  And you will truly have hit bottom when you imagine the next phase of this existential slide - that there is a god.  And avoidance of this kind of slide into insanity is the purpose of meditation, so go ahead (IOW, move to the front of the line) and lose your mind.  You will never regret it!

Bob

 
 
burt
 
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burt
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01 January 2008 21:49
 

181200: try singing the following song—it only has one line:

My dear mind, you don’t exist (lower octive, ascending)
My dear mind, you don’t exist (higher octave, descending)

More to the point, CanZen’s experiences are his, you didn’t say what led you to stop meditating.  If you are going to take up some form of meditation or other spiritual practices (not religious, but practices aimed as self-knowledge) it would be a good idea at some point to find a school, there are a variety of them around so it is a matter of what connects for you.  Some meditations (probably the forms you were experimenting with) are “without form” (e.g., Zen) and others are “with form” (e.g., Tibetian).  It’s all a matter of what works best for you.  The general rule of thumb here is to do what seems best at the time, but stay aware and learn from experience (e.g., you might learn that it wasn’t such a good idea after all).

 
181200
 
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181200
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01 January 2008 22:24
 

Thanks Zan and Burt for the discussions. You both have very interesting takes on this subject.

Burt I stopped the meditations because their came a point where I felt that what I experienced from that initial experience was enough for me at that point.

I had read enough about meditation to understand it’s premise, but the first time around I enjoyed the shallow waters of the mental alertness and the feelings of balance which the first few weeks gave me. But as I became more comfortable with the meditation, I was able to tap into areas of my subconsiousness and experience some sort of new awareness or perhaps delusion which I was not comfortable trying to figure out at that time.

What I do know is that the experience was fascinating. I will meditate again someday, but I plan on asking questions first and listening to others as a base outline of what to expect.

[ Edited: 01 January 2008 22:30 by 181200]
 
mcalpine
 
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mcalpine
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01 January 2008 22:35
 

Weren’t ancient Egyptians the first to meditate?

 
slfnflctd
 
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slfnflctd
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03 January 2008 09:09
 

Wow, cool.  I’m gonna hafta try that.  It’s probably healthier than some of the other methods I’ve been using to reach for insights & transcendence.  I’ve kinda been reluctant thus far because I’m so afraid it won’t do anything for me, but I guess that’s not really something to be afraid of. 
Now I just need to overcome my own inherent laziness (which inevitably keeps leading to those other methods I mentioned)...

 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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06 January 2008 14:03
 
181200 - 02 January 2008 12:06 AM

Hi everyone. I have recently gained interest in San Harris and his readings, and I figure his forum would have the right people to discuss my experience with meditation. (Bare with me please as this is my first post here and I am only 23)

Welcome to the Forum.  I tried to reply to your PM, but it wouldn’t go through.  I got an ERROR signal.  A forum moderator has suggested that the private message board may not recognize names that consist entirely of numbers.

If you haven’t already read them, here are two small Zen books that you might enjoy:

‘ZEN ESSENCE - The Science of Freedom’ - translated and edited by Thomas Cleary.

‘ZEN LETTERS - Teachings of Yuanwu’ - translated by J.C. Cleary and Thomas Cleary.

A popular 2007 best seller is ‘A NEW EARTH’ by Eckhart Tolle.

I could see that Tolle had read the books of J. Krishnamurti.  Here is a paragraph from Krishnamurti’s book, ‘EDUCATION AND THE SIGNIFICANCE OF LIFE’:

“The self, the “me” and the “mine”, is very strong in most of us; sleeping or waking, it is ever alert, always strengthening itself.  But when there is awareness of the self and a realization that all its activities, however subtle, must inevitably lead to conflict and pain, then the craving for certainty, for self-continuance comes to an end.”

In some of Krishnamurti’s other books you will find descriptions of his own experiences that might remind you of some of your own meditation experiences.  He died in 1986 but you can still find his books in libraries and bookstores.

My hunch is that Sam Harris is going to write more about his meditation experiments.

 
 
Yahsene
 
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Yahsene
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06 January 2008 14:40
 

Could you provide very brief definitions of what the following terms mean to you?

1. Conscious thoughts
2. Subconscious thoughts
3. Unconscious thoughts

If the conscious thoughts are those thoughts which the mind is aware of and subconscious thoughts are the thoughts that one was once aware of but is not currently aware of then unconscious thoughts are the thoughts which one’s mind has never become aware of. Do you agree with this?

If so then the mind can observe the conscious thoughts very easily through meditation by being silent and still and observing them as they come and go. However, one cannot observe the subconscious thoughts unless one becomes conscious of those thoughts. If the subconscious thoughts surface and become conscious present thoughts then they are not subconscious at all, but conscious. In this sense thoughts cannot be subconscious. They are either conscious or they are not conscious. If they are not conscious thoughts and are unconscious then they are not actually thoughts, but conditioned responses to past experiences. Unconscious thoughts are memories. Memories themselves are nothing more than perceptions made by the mind of the past, not the mind of the present so if the mind of the present brings the memories of the past mind up then the memory will remain partial as the present mind would perceive that same experience in a much different manner. When the present mind reflects back on a memory (past experience) it alters it from how it actually happened. 

Meditation is not meant to bring the thoughts to the mind, it is meant to stop these thoughts from clustering the mind. The purpose of meditation is to drop these thoughts, not to bring them up. The mind can function clearly without the thoughts. In fact, the act of thinking proves that the mind is not alert and clear.

You have said that you were watching the various compartments of your mind, body and soul . . . what was watching? If there was a watcher then there must be an identity there.

Genes form brain
Brain uses the past to form a Mind
Mind is a mirror which reflects back the world to brain
Brain creates identity
Identity is reflected back to brain by mind
Brain alters identity
Identity is again reflected back to brain by mind
Brain alters identity again
Identity is once more reflected back to brain by mind
*This process continues until one drops it*

Meditation is for dropping, not picking up.

[ Edited: 06 January 2008 14:45 by Yahsene]
 
Yahsene
 
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06 January 2008 14:49
 
CanZen - 02 January 2008 02:24 AM

Hey 181200, since you opened your post with an invitation to get naked with you (“bare with me . . . .you meant ‘bear with me’), I will jump right in.  As a person who has lost his mind (literally) I can appreciate what you are saying.  You see I actually do not “have” a mind, but I do enjoy dabbling in the subconscious.  If I‘ve confused you let me try to be more clear (and naked) . . . I have discovered through a form of meditation that I am essentially a conscious body with the capacity to have a whole range of human experiences (perceptive, emotional, informative, etc.) and with the ability to put these unique experiences into linguistic expressions: that is all of what I am, there is no such thing as a mind somewhere in my being that does anything at all.  I do have a physical brain and this incredible organ does all those things that I had mistakenly projected onto my mind, when I still thought that I had one, that is.  Naturally, this brain is my minding organ and it pays attention to (it minds) all of the sensual, perceptual, emotional, corporal, informational, conceptual, and linguistic streams that manage to permeate through my conscious body. 

I don’t think there is anything to fear from meditation, as long as you don’t persist in believing that you have a mind.  You see 181200, if you believe that, it’s not much of a jump to the next belief in that slippery slope - that you have a soul.  And you will truly have hit bottom when you imagine the next phase of this existential slide - that there is a god.  And avoidance of this kind of slide into insanity is the purpose of meditation, so go ahead (IOW, move to the front of the line) and lose your mind.  You will never regret it!

Bob

If you are not then what is I?

 
181200
 
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181200
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06 January 2008 17:34
 

Unsmoked, thank you VERY much for the information. I appreciate it.

 
Yahsene
 
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06 January 2008 22:43
 

Here’s are two books that directly address “The Way” (Dhammapada = Buddhist and Tao = Taoist) You’ve probably read them both already, but just in case you haven’t . . .

http://www.amazon.com/Dhammapada-Translation-Buddhist-Classic-Annotations/dp/1590303806/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199684911&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Te-Ching-Skylight-Illuminations/dp/1594732043/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199685071&sr=1-5


Here are a couple books by two men who taught it in two very different ways. Jiddu Krishnamurti’s technique was to reject all techniques, gurus, yogis, etc and to teach people how to discover the truth through the mind (thus becoming the guru that he claimed not to agree with). Jiddu didn’t study other people and used only his own personal experiences. Osho took a very different approach. He studied everything and used parables, humor, techniques and basically everything he could to get people to that place. Try not to focus on the men and just focus entirely on what they are saying though because they both have very strange groupies. Jiddu had a fake Krishnamurti who roamed angrily around America and India mocking him and Osho had the Hippies distorting what he was saying in their own goofy Hippy way.

http://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Intelligence-Jiddu-Krishnamurti/dp/0060648341/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199684228&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Buddha-Said-Meeting-Challenge-Difficulties/dp/1842931156/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199685880&sr=1-1


Couple videos of them speaking:

Jiddu Krishnamurti
http://youtube.com/watch?v=n0sLu_TRhDc&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rvqL_vkGEw4&feature=related

Osho
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hhjOnYbKJJw&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=O9we864sMns&feature=related


But, if you would like a more modern first hand account of transcendence then you should check this book out. It’s definitely one of the greatest literary works ever, imo:

http://www.amazon.com/Walden-Writings-Modern-Library-Classics/dp/0679783342/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199685411&sr=1-2

 
CanZen
 
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CanZen
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07 January 2008 21:41
 

Hmmmmm.  Mr. un-sene . . . you ask: “If you are not then what is I?”

Perhaps you meant, “If you are not then what am I?” (Ha!)

““I am essentially a conscious body with the capacity to have a whole range of human experiences (perceptive, emotional, informative, etc.) and with the ability to put these unique experiences into linguistic expressions: that is all of what I am”“

I assume that you are referring to the ‘me’ that keeps on blabbering and attempting to make meaning when you question . . . “If you are not?” - the fact is when you (or anyone) speaks about me, then I am not (I could be dead and you might still speak of me in the same manner, so for all intents and purposes - meaningwise - I am just a figment of yours or another’s utterances).  But when I write something or use the word ‘I’ then of course I am.  I am that same conscious body expressing myself.

p.s.  I was curious as to your leaving this forum on December 01,2007 in the form of Yahun? But preincarnating in the form of Yahsene on November 13, 2007 eighteen days before your departure? And what was going on in those 18 days while you were here both as Yahun and Yahsene? (If you have already answered this mindless intrusion into your private realm or wish to stay mum, then please disregard.)

Bob

 
 
Yahsene
 
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07 January 2008 23:31
 
CanZen - 08 January 2008 02:41 AM

Hmmmmm.  Mr. un-sene . . . you ask: “If you are not then what is I?”

Perhaps you meant, “If you are not then what am I?” (Ha!)

““I am essentially a conscious body with the capacity to have a whole range of human experiences (perceptive, emotional, informative, etc.) and with the ability to put these unique experiences into linguistic expressions: that is all of what I am”“

I assume that you are referring to the ‘me’ that keeps on blabbering and attempting to make meaning when you question . . . “If you are not?” - the fact is when you (or anyone) speaks about me, then I am not (I could be dead and you might still speak of me in the same manner, so for all intents and purposes - meaningwise - I am just a figment of yours or another’s utterances).  But when I write something or use the word ‘I’ then of course I am.  I am that same conscious body expressing myself.

Imagine how many I’s there are floating around in people’s heads. Your mother has a version of you in her head and your father has the same. Your brothers and sisters have their versions of you as do your friends, lover(s), children, cousins, aunts, uncles and neighbors, each and every person that you encounter throughout the day and then the numerous yous within your own mind . . . the past yous, future yous and present you. How is one to determine which is real and which is false, in your opinion?

From my observation, and I could be wrong, the only true self is the present self and if one is truly present it is no self at all. So, my question is…knowing all of this…is it possible to drop all of the yous within the mind or do you say that we are slaves to this delusional creation? If we know these selves to be delusions and we are still unable to drop them then, even knowing them to be delusions, is it rational to expect theists to drop their delusions simply because we can show them that they are in fact delusions?

p.s.  I was curious as to your leaving this forum on December 01,2007 in the form of Yahun? But preincarnating in the form of Yahsene on November 13, 2007 eighteen days before your departure? And what was going on in those 18 days while you were here both as Yahun and Yahsene? (If you have already answered this mindless intrusion into your private realm or wish to stay mum, then please disregard.)

What is your theory?

 
Mia
 
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Mia
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08 January 2008 18:50
 
Yahsene - 08 January 2008 04:31 AM
CanZen - 08 January 2008 02:41 AM

p.s.  I was curious as to your leaving this forum on December 01,2007 in the form of Yahun? But preincarnating in the form of Yahsene on November 13, 2007 eighteen days before your departure? And what was going on in those 18 days while you were here both as Yahun and Yahsene? (If you have already answered this mindless intrusion into your private realm or wish to stay mum, then please disregard.)

What is your theory?

My own guess is that you’ve spawned yet another persona—“181200”, a variation on your sign-up date—in your ongoing campaign to keep us interested in your perspective. . . although apparently you’re unable to squelch your other voices, and have resorted to conversing with yourself in order to lend credence to whatever it is you’re desparate for us to agree with you on. Have you had this condition diagnosed yet? Is it a split personality disorder, or what?

I imagine it’s tough for compulsive liars to keep all their lies straight, but do at least try being a little more original in naming your future aliases. Go for some variation in your avatars, too. Had you forgotten that your ‘Yahun’ persona was already using that silly double smilie pic? I vote you just shorten both names to “Yahu”, since it suits you so well.

Yahun’s page: http://www.samharris.org/forum/member/1809/

Better hurry and change one of those avatars. . . or better yet, beg one of us to delete this thread, per usual.

 
 
181200
 
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181200
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08 January 2008 20:20
 

Hi Mia,

I can enjoy an online sub plot as much as the next man, but Please keep me out of any dual personality conflicts lol. Sine I have joined, I have enjoyed reading this site and I plan on sticking around for a bit, I would hate for people to think I am someone else.

If a admin on this board would like to check my IP address, and verify this,, by all means do so.

[ Edited: 08 January 2008 20:24 by 181200]
 
Yahsene
 
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Yahsene
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08 January 2008 21:15
 
Mia - 08 January 2008 11:50 PM
Yahsene - 08 January 2008 04:31 AM
CanZen - 08 January 2008 02:41 AM

p.s.  I was curious as to your leaving this forum on December 01,2007 in the form of Yahun? But preincarnating in the form of Yahsene on November 13, 2007 eighteen days before your departure? And what was going on in those 18 days while you were here both as Yahun and Yahsene? (If you have already answered this mindless intrusion into your private realm or wish to stay mum, then please disregard.)

What is your theory?

My own guess is that you’ve spawned yet another persona—“181200”, a variation on your sign-up date—in your ongoing campaign to keep us interested in your perspective. . . although apparently you’re unable to squelch your other voices, and have resorted to conversing with yourself in order to lend credence to whatever it is you’re desparate for us to agree with you on. Have you had this condition diagnosed yet? Is it a split personality disorder, or what?

I imagine it’s tough for compulsive liars to keep all their lies straight, but do at least try being a little more original in naming your future aliases. Go for some variation in your avatars, too. Had you forgotten that your ‘Yahun’ persona was already using that silly double smilie pic? I vote you just shorten both names to “Yahu”, since it suits you so well.

Yahun’s page: http://www.samharris.org/forum/member/1809/

Better hurry and change one of those avatars. . . or better yet, beg one of us to delete this thread, per usual.


That avatar is from this site and I don’t post under any other names. The only two names I have ever posted under on here are Yahun and Yahsene.

http://www.samharris.org/forum/member/browse_avatars/default_set/

[ Edited: 08 January 2008 21:19 by Yahsene]
 
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