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Mental Slavery

 
Celsus
 
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Celsus
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09 January 2008 19:43
 

Oh no, it wasn’t that one. That’s one I stand by.

 
 
Yahsene
 
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Yahsene
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09 January 2008 21:27
 
Celsus - 09 January 2008 11:00 PM
Yahsene - 09 January 2008 09:47 PM

My wife and I just got back from an exhibit in Ft. Lauderdale that completely blew my mind and I’m still recovering from it. It’s called “Bodies Exihibition”
http://www.bodiestheexhibition.com/

You get to see all parts of the human body (real human bodies donated to science), including human embryos and my view of abortion drastically changed. When I was younger I felt that abortion was wrong because I believed in the whole Theistic concept of God. When I grew up I stopped believing in the Theistic concept of God and after reading about how the human embryo is just a “cluster of cells” my view of abortion changed. Turns out that at 3 weeks the embryo has a hearbeat and at 9 weeks it has all of its major organs. I am strongly against abortion now. When you are looking at an actual fetus of 10 weeks and you can see its toes and hands and the veins in its hands and feet and its eyes . . . it is unfathomable that a human being would promote ejecting that out of a human body just so that these opportunistic fucks can use them for stem cell research. Scientists should be limited to using the umbilical cord for stem cell research. Everything they need is there. We have birth control now. To not use birth control is a choice. I support a woman’s right to choose and a woman who chooses not to use birth control (and a man who chooses not to wear a condom) have made their choice. I will never again support abortion and will oppose anybody who does promote it for their own personal benefit. Keep in mind that Nazi Germany and Japan were torturing and killing human beings during WWII “in the name of science”. There MUST be a limit placed on how far men are allowed to go with their “science”. It has to stop. I will never retract this view again. Looking at that fetus changed me.

I also no longer deny that there is a self in out nature. All of you who were saying this were correct and I was incorrect because I felt my nature rise as I looked at those babies. Shit bothered me beyond all of my logic and reason. My logic said, “It’s just flesh, just bones, nothing more.” But, something inside of me grew more and more angry and I cannot deny that.

Well, that’s a kinder and gentler test than my hypotheticals, but, yeah I think that was what I was trying to get at. The “fight or flight” reflex is the most extreme example, but what I was suggesting was any situation that would, as the English might say, “take the piss out of you.” I think it’s hard to maintain our polished veneers when confronted by something that shocks our sense of self to the very core.

Your point about the lion is interesting. I would say that when a lion attacks, it is acting in accordance with it’s identity. A lion simply is. It can be no more or no less than a lion, because that is what it is. It’s always true to it’s self because it has little need for guile. It’s identity is inextricably linked to it’s physical being. Perhaps a lion could be taught to act like a gazelle, but it’s identity would still be a lion. While I’m not really a fan of hers, perhaps Ayn Rand put it best when she said that A is A. a thing is what it is.

This might seem like a strange segue, and entirely O.T., but this kind of reminds me of an old comic book I read as a kid, Superman vs. Muhammad Ali. During the fight scene (which featured a de-powered Superman boxing Ali for an extraterrestrial audience. I forget why), I remember the announcer explained that Superman was wearing his cape and tights, because to aliens all human beings look alike. This used to make me wonder if a truly superior intelligence, one as far evolved from us as we are from the apes, was to observe us, would they be able to detect the many differences in behavior and beliefs that we consider so important, or would we just look like a bunch of chimpanzees on the war path?

I suppose my question is no longer whether there is a nature to us, but whether our identity (which I still believe we as minds create) is in tune with our actual individual natures.

For some individuals, one could only hope that there exhibited behaviors are in accord with their core identity. For some, I dearly hope not.

I no longer believe that I no what the fuck is going on, but I don’t believe anybody else does either. In fact, I’m certain that nobody else does. It’s beyond our comprehension. We can study the material realm and we can study how energy manifests energy and moves and we can manipulate both energy and matter but how energy came about and what is giving order to what seems to be chaos cannot be understood.

It would usually be in my nature to make a joke here, but for once I believe you are being entirely honest. I will simply remark that I am honestly touched by your epiphany.

I’m at a loss for words and all it took was a visit to an exhibit. Funny, we spend years establishing our “ideas” and our “philosophies” and something so simple can piss it all away. I still stand by my views that the Buddhist/Taoist approach to life is the only philosophy that fits with what we know. We can suppress our nature with our delusional identities fabricated by the mind and formed from its interaction with society, but we cannot change our nature through suppression. It is always there beneath the surface and will rise when provoked.

Frankly, I live for those moments when I am at a loss for words.

I think our differences are semantics. What you’re calling an identity I am calling nature. I don’t consider nature to be an identity. When I refer to an identity I’m referring to the “idea” of the self that exists in the head, not the self that is in the acting. Identity, in that way that I’m using it is a reference to the actor and not the being that is acting. It may not seem as though there is a difference on the surface, but there is.

For example…when one is having sex, fully in the act and not thinking about another person or whatever many people do and they are so involved in the act that thought stops, the identity in the head dissipates and even the “I” is gone and the man and woman (or man and man/woman and woman, I suppose) lose themselves entirely in the acting and for that moment become one. During this moment, brief as it may be, there is no actor. It is only the act and the two people are entirely gone as individuals. But, one would easily be having sex with one woman and be thinking about another or imagining a scenario or whatever and then the identity is there, the false self is present and the natural self is not on the surface.

This is what I’ve been talking about all along, I was just failing to get that across. It’s not about some supernatural, godlike experience. It’s just a dropping of the illusory self.

 
Celsus
 
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Celsus
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10 January 2008 15:39
 

No, I’ve understood what you meant from the get go, I just don’t agree with it.

Look, the “illusory self”, as you term it, it really just the conscious self, or to think of it another way, it is the active self. It’s those parts of ones personality that one has conscious control over. These might include how you dress, how you speak, what your interest are, but these things are not you in total.

You could look at it this way: there are, say, three aspects of personality that go into making up an individuals identity. First is the conscious self, the part that one can actively control and modify. The second is the public self. This could be described as how others see you. This is something that you might wish to discount, but as that no man is an island, your personality will be affected by how others react to you. The third is the unconscious self, or those aspects of personality that you have no control over, or even little awareness of. Your reaction to the Body’s Exhibition exhibit would be of this sort. These are the personality traits that may arise from genetics, conditioning from early childhood, and environmental factors. In other words, the kind of factors most of us wouldn’t consciously be aware of.

To my mind, when one has claimed that they have suppressed their ego, and let go of their conscious self, they have made a very egotistical claim. I believe that it is analogous to such non-sequiter sayings as, “I am very proud of my humility.” The ego needed to be able to believe that you have suppressed your ego is egotistical in the extreme.

This is why I place little weight on the claims of guru’s, mystics, and even most philosophers. Much of what they postulate comes from these sorts of inner dialogues (this seems especially true of most eastern philosophies). But the one problem with intense self analysis, particularly solo kind that comes from such hermit style mystics as Buddha, is that one can only be aware of the active parts of ones personality. No one is so self objective that they can see every hidden aspect of their personality. This is especially true of those unconscious aspects.

Have you ever heard someone say things like, “you can’t talk to me that way?” or perhaps cry, “I’m not like that!”? These sorts of phrases arise when ones perception of their active self comes into conflict with another’s impression of their public self. I think that parts of our unconscious self will, unbeknown to us, exhibit through our carefully constructed notions of our identity to manifest it’s self through our public persona. Other people will read those aspects in a way which we possibly can’t, and react accordingly. Most of the time, we will dismiss such seeming incongruities, however, when those incongruities come into conflict with our perceived notions of self, we become baffled, and thus will emit the types of statements that started this paragraph.

To my mind, it is the constant feedback loop of the interactions of the public, actionable and unconscious self from which a concrete identity arises. While one may be able to modify aspects of ones actionable self, one will still be “trapped,” if you will, by the other two.

To illustrate, In my youth, I was raised as a catholic. I was baptized, attended catholic school, was dragged to church, and all the other catholic rigmarole (except that I was never abused by a priest. Got whacked by a yardstick a few times, but never been abused). However, by the time that I entered adolescence, I had stopped doing all of that. Now, even though my catholic phase only comprised roughly a third of my life, a portion that will forever be shrinking as I age, I have had a few people who claim that they can still see the catholic in me poking through at odd times. I myself cannot see this, and upon self examination of the events leading to those comments, can’t quite figure out how they could come to that conclusion. But that doesn’t mean that they are wrong. Others can very often perceive those parts of ourselves that we have worked so hard to suppress and ignore.

Much of what you have been speaking of would perhaps be better described by the word “persona”. This is what actors do, they assume a persona when they modify their behaviors to appear as someone else. But this will not affect those core aspects of identity that make up their individual being.

[ Edited: 10 January 2008 15:44 by Celsus]
 
 
Yahsene
 
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Yahsene
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10 January 2008 20:24
 
Celsus - 10 January 2008 08:39 PM

No, I’ve understood what you meant from the get go, I just don’t agree with it.

Look, the “illusory self”, as you term it, it really just the conscious self, or to think of it another way, it is the active self. It’s those parts of ones personality that one has conscious control over. These might include how you dress, how you speak, what your interest are, but these things are not you in total.

You could look at it this way: there are, say, three aspects of personality that go into making up an individuals identity. First is the conscious self, the part that one can actively control and modify. The second is the public self. This could be described as how others see you. This is something that you might wish to discount, but as that no man is an island, your personality will be affected by how others react to you. The third is the unconscious self, or those aspects of personality that you have no control over, or even little awareness of. Your reaction to the Body’s Exhibition exhibit would be of this sort. These are the personality traits that may arise from genetics, conditioning from early childhood, and environmental factors. In other words, the kind of factors most of us wouldn’t consciously be aware of.

To my mind, when one has claimed that they have suppressed their ego, and let go of their conscious self, they have made a very egotistical claim. I believe that it is analogous to such non-sequiter sayings as, “I am very proud of my humility.” The ego needed to be able to believe that you have suppressed your ego is egotistical in the extreme.

This is why I place little weight on the claims of guru’s, mystics, and even most philosophers. Much of what they postulate comes from these sorts of inner dialogues (this seems especially true of most eastern philosophies). But the one problem with intense self analysis, particularly solo kind that comes from such hermit style mystics as Buddha, is that one can only be aware of the active parts of ones personality. No one is so self objective that they can see every hidden aspect of their personality. This is especially true of those unconscious aspects.

Have you ever heard someone say things like, “you can’t talk to me that way?” or perhaps cry, “I’m not like that!”? These sorts of phrases arise when ones perception of their active self comes into conflict with another’s impression of their public self. I think that parts of our unconscious self will, unbeknown to us, exhibit through our carefully constructed notions of our identity to manifest it’s self through our public persona. Other people will read those aspects in a way which we possibly can’t, and react accordingly. Most of the time, we will dismiss such seeming incongruities, however, when those incongruities come into conflict with our perceived notions of self, we become baffled, and thus will emit the types of statements that started this paragraph.

To my mind, it is the constant feedback loop of the interactions of the public, actionable and unconscious self from which a concrete identity arises. While one may be able to modify aspects of ones actionable self, one will still be “trapped,” if you will, by the other two.

To illustrate, In my youth, I was raised as a catholic. I was baptized, attended catholic school, was dragged to church, and all the other catholic rigmarole (except that I was never abused by a priest. Got whacked by a yardstick a few times, but never been abused). However, by the time that I entered adolescence, I had stopped doing all of that. Now, even though my catholic phase only comprised roughly a third of my life, a portion that will forever be shrinking as I age, I have had a few people who claim that they can still see the catholic in me poking through at odd times. I myself cannot see this, and upon self examination of the events leading to those comments, can’t quite figure out how they could come to that conclusion. But that doesn’t mean that they are wrong. Others can very often perceive those parts of ourselves that we have worked so hard to suppress and ignore.

Much of what you have been speaking of would perhaps be better described by the word “persona”. This is what actors do, they assume a persona when they modify their behaviors to appear as someone else. But this will not affect those core aspects of identity that make up their individual being.

http://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Intelligence-Jiddu-Krishnamurti/dp/0060648341/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200025354&sr=1-21

We’re going around in circles. Read this book if you get a chance.

 
Yahsene
 
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Yahsene
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10 January 2008 20:37
 

Identity as you are using it means the same thing as natural self as I am using it. The words are irrelevant and no, I’m not going to speak so that you understand me. I have made it clear what I mean and it is up to you whether you wish to understand what I am saying or do not.

“It is a ridiculous demand which England and America make, that you shall speak so that they can understand you” - Thoreau

Identity is a word and it means “The distinct personality of an individual regarded as a persisting entity; individuality.” This self is manufactured by the individual mind. The identity in my mind of me is not the identity in other’s minds of me because my mind has different genes and has learned from a very different environment than the other.
There are some similarities, but they themselves are built off of man-made concepts: Name, Race, Etc. 99% of the identity is complete and utter nonsense. It is not real. The only part of the identity that IS real is the natural self. The rest is only real because it has been created by the individual minds perceiving the human animal.

 
burt
 
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burt
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10 January 2008 21:55
 
Yahsene - 11 January 2008 01:37 AM

Identity as you are using it means the same thing as natural self as I am using it. The words are irrelevant and no, I’m not going to speak so that you understand me. I have made it clear what I mean and it is up to you whether you wish to understand what I am saying or do not.

“It is a ridiculous demand which England and America make, that you shall speak so that they can understand you” - Thoreau

Identity is a word and it means “The distinct personality of an individual regarded as a persisting entity; individuality.” This self is manufactured by the individual mind. The identity in my mind of me is not the identity in other’s minds of me because my mind has different genes and has learned from a very different environment than the other.
There are some similarities, but they themselves are built off of man-made concepts: Name, Race, Etc. 99% of the identity is complete and utter nonsense. It is not real. The only part of the identity that IS real is the natural self. The rest is only real because it has been created by the individual minds perceiving the human animal.

“In the turbulence of the mind arises the wind called ‘I’”  Aleister Crowley.

 
mcalpine
 
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10 January 2008 22:00
 

“The identity in my mind of me is not the identity in other’s minds of me because my mind has different genes and has learned from a very different environment than the other.”

Exactly. And your mind, genes, and environment have little actual effect on the way you are perceived by others.

 
Yahsene
 
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11 January 2008 03:15
 
mcalpine - 11 January 2008 03:00 AM

“The identity in my mind of me is not the identity in other’s minds of me because my mind has different genes and has learned from a very different environment than the other.”

Exactly. And your mind, genes, and environment have little actual effect on the way you are perceived by others.

Do you see this? I understand that you are saying this, but do you see it fully?

If my genes and environment have little to no effect on the version of me that lives on only in the other’s head then their concept of me is based off of how I look (through the prism of their mind, which is influenced by its environment and genes) as well as what I say. If what I say is formed off of environment and spoken out of ignorance and dualism and division (perceiving only partially) then they will form a concept off of my delusions, division, dualities and prism as well as their own. This is stupidity. There is no authentic I. I is a creation of the mind. It is not real in the identity sense. Now, in regards to the nature of the being (energy and matter), yes. That is a very real thing. This is the authentic I. But, it is not an I at all, is it? It is just a part within an ongoing whole. Every cell of this body and brain is merely atoms with void within them and in this void is a pulse, a charge of energy.

All form stems from the void within it. Within all forms is void. That void is the truth. The form is a lie. It is the reflection of energy, nothing more.

 
mcalpine
 
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11 January 2008 10:24
 

“There is no authentic I.”

I can appreciate how you must feel this way about yourself, but to others, there is a very authentic you.

 
Yahsene
 
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11 January 2008 11:55
 
mcalpine - 11 January 2008 03:24 PM

“There is no authentic I.”

I can appreciate how you must feel this way about yourself, but to others, there is a very authentic you.

That is their problem. I am not concerned with their delusion. If they expect me to accept their concept of me I simply won’t. What can I do? During American slavery there were slaves who loved their slavery and their masters turned them against the other slaves who were trying to free themselves. That is the way it has always been and it will likely always be this way.

 
Celsus
 
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11 January 2008 16:51
 

I knew you would discount the influences of others on our personalities! Seems I know you better than you thought.

Look, whether you like it or not, how others react to you has a profound effect on your identity. You claim that you choose to ignore what others think of you, I say that you are deluding yourself. You will unconsciously pick up on others reactions, positive and negative, and respond like Pavlov’s dog to a bell.

You prove this with all of your “mindfucks” that you are so proud of. You wouldn’t do those things if you didn’t enjoy the reaction you get from the people you are pranking. If you truly didn’t care what people thought about you, or how they perceived you, you wouldn’t be “fucking with their heads.” You would be your authentic self, your core self, the mentally constructed “I” that only exist in your head.

The only reason that someone feels a need to put on airs is to attract attention. The only reason to attract attention is to get a reaction from people. The only reason to want those reactions is to inflate your ego.

You are an attention junky. This is why you like “fucking with peoples heads.” This is why you start so many threads, and it’s also why you can’t leave after telling us over and over again that you are finished with us. This is a part of your identity that you seemingly have no control over. This is your authentic “I”.

If your “I” is merely a construct of your conscious mind, and is devoid of all meaning, then, why, exactly, do you “choose” to get such a kick out of “fucking with peoples heads?” You may rationalize that you are teaching them something, or opening their eyes to a new truth. But what you really are doing is getting off on the reactions.

You see your self as enlightened, and at the risk of you calling this an ad hominen attack (even though it’s just a simple observation), I see some one who enjoys being a clown.

[ Edited: 11 January 2008 17:36 by Celsus]
 
 
Yahun
 
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Yahun
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11 January 2008 22:54
 
Celsus - 11 January 2008 09:51 PM

I knew you would discount the influences of others on our personalities! Seems I know you better than you thought.

I’d hope you knew that, I’ve been saying that I don’t care what other people think about me for the last several days. If I actually cared what any of you think I wouldn’t make the posts that I make and would adapt to your way of thinking so that you could all congratulate me on being a puppet like yourselves. No thank you. Think whatever you wish about me, it makes no difference. Believe it or not there actually does exist people in this world who just don’t give a shit what others think about them. Perhaps you struggle with this because you care too much what others think about you and it hurts your ego that I could actually not give a shit?

Look, whether you like it or not, how others react to you has a profound effect on your identity.

This would be true if I cared what they thought or believed that their opinions could influence my authentic identity. Their opinions can only influence my false identity (the identity that we create as a mask) and then only if I actually give value to their opinions (which are also falsely formed by their own deluded and divided minds) and I don’t.

People’s opinions of me don’t influence me in any way shape or form. I am who I am by nature and if you wish to call that me then fine, but it cannot change, it is my nature. The only way your identity can be changed by other’s ideas of you is if you care what they think and if your identity is a mask. Then you can change your mask to be accepted by them or you can continue wearing that mask just to annoy them, but I am doing neither one. I do what I do because I enjoy it. I do it for the same reason children play hide and go seek. It entertains me to watch people react. I’m not doing it for you, I don’t care about you. I don’t know you. Fuck you. You, as I think of you, is an illusion. Whatever I think of you is not you, it is my idea of you and it doesn’t matter because it isn’t real, just as your idea of me is nothing more than an idea. Fuck me. Fuck you. Stop worrying what other people think about you and grow up. We’re not in grade school.

You claim that you choose to ignore what others think of you, I say that you are deluding yourself. You will unconsciously pick up on others reactions, positive and negative, and respond like Pavlov’s dog to a bell.

That is your idea. You are wrong. I truly don’t care enough to be affected by your ideas. 

You prove this with all of your “mindfucks” that you are so proud of. You wouldn’t do those things if you didn’t enjoy the reaction you get from the people you are pranking.

It is the reaction, but not your reaction to me. It is your reactions that amuse me. It’s like dropping a water balloon from an apartment building roof onto people passing underneath as a kid. I didn’t do that because I cared what other people thought, I did it because I thought it was hilarious. When I was forced to go to church as a kid and I would ask the preacher questions in the middle of service that he couldn’t answer and then laugh it wasn’t because I cared what the people in the church thought of me, I didn’t care what they thought of me even then as a kid, it just amused me. People amuse me. That’s all there is to it.

If you truly didn’t care what people thought about you, or how they perceived you, you wouldn’t be “fucking with their heads.” You would be your authentic self, your core self, the mentally constructed “I” that only exist in your head.

Do you have a learning disability? My authentic self is my nature, the natural mind which finds all of you hilarious and just likes fucking with you. I don’t care what you think about my identity. I don’t believe in the identity like you don’t believe in God. I grew out of that at the age of 7. Apparently you’re still a slave to that delusion.

Think whatever you wish about me. Some people will like me because they feel a connection to what they think I am and others will not feel a connection to me beccause they cannot connect to the idea of me in their heads, for whatever reasons. I don’t give a shit what you think of me either in my favor or against me. I will not be influenced by you. Your ego cannot comprehend that it is not important to me. That is your conflict with me. But, I don’t care. Believe whatever you wish.

The only reason that someone feels a need to put on airs is to attract attention.

Wrong sir, that is the only reason you would put on airs. I put on airs because I amuse myself by doing it. I could give a fuck about attracting your attention. If you reply then I get my amusement. If you don’t then I don’t get it here, but I will get it wherever I am. I treat life rather lightly. I don’t take you or anybody else seriously unless they are a threat to my life or the lives of others and then I will be serious with them and fuck them up, but otherwise why should I waste my life away taking human beings seriously. Human beings are talking monkeys. Do you take monkeys seriously? Why do you take human beings seriously?

The only reason to attract attention is to get a reaction from people. The only reason to want these reactions is to inflate your ego.

Does one play basketball to inflate their ego? Some do. But many play basketball because they enjoy playing basketball. I fuck with people because I enjoy it. It’s funny. It’s like making your cat chase a laser light around the room. You don’t do that because it makes you feel smart. You do it cause it’s hilarious. You don’t feed a dog peanut butter and laugh as he tries to chew it just because it makes you feel smart, you do it because it’s funny as shit. If I’m going to be here on this earth with all of your serious illusory egos then I’m going to fuck with you and that’s just something you’re going to have to accept. I don’t take you seriously and I never will. Give me one good reason why I should. Just one. 

You are an attention junky. This is why you like “fucking with peoples heads.” This is why you start so many threads, and it’s also why you can’t leave after telling us over and over again that you are finished with us. This is a part of your identity that you seemingly have no control over. This is your authentic “I”.

No sir, I told you that was my last post. I was referring to that thread. I did not say that I am never going to post anywhere on this site again. That was your assumption and the assumption of others. I come here because I am on vacation and have done everything I wanted to do and now I have time to kill. That’s why I am here. When my vacation is finished I’ll be gone and you can go back to your serious discussions and egotistical circle jerks.

If your “I” is merely a construct of your conscious mind, and is devoid of all meaning, then, why, exactly, do you “choose” to get such a kick out of “fucking with peoples heads?” You may rationalize that you are teaching them something, or opening their eyes to a new truth. But what you really are doing is getting off on the reactions.

I choose to follow my nature. I am naturally amused by you. I don’t choose to be amused by it. I can’t help that. I find you all funny as shit. And no, I’m not trying to teach you anything or open your eyes to any new truth. I would never waste my time explaining a sunrise to a blind man. I’m not that foolish.

There are people on here who will find a deeper meaning in what I am doing and there are those who will not. They are creating that meaning, not me. It is only in their heads. There is no meaning to what I do, I do it because that is who I am.

You see your self as enlightened, and at the risk of you calling this an ad hominen attack (even though it’s just a simple observation), I see some one who enjoys being a clown.

Ah, but this is the question, sir, if one is naturally a clown and they live life as a clown, drop their false identities and embrace their authentic nauture . . . then they are enlightened. However, if one is serious by nature and they pretend to be a clown then they are not enlightened because it is a false identity.

One man may be a clown when he becomes enlightened and another man may become the president. Who can say what will happen? You have formed an ideal of what an enlightened man or woman must act like and this is precisely my point. All ideals are bullshit. Fuck your ideals.

[ Edited: 11 January 2008 23:16 by Yahun]
 
Celsus
 
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12 January 2008 12:26
 
Yahun - 12 January 2008 03:54 AM

I’d hope you knew that, I’ve been saying that I don’t care what other people think about me for the last several days. If I actually cared what any of you think I wouldn’t make the posts that I make and would adapt to your way of thinking so that you could all congratulate me on being a puppet like yourselves. No thank you. Think whatever you wish about me, it makes no difference. Believe it or not there actually does exist people in this world who just don’t give a shit what others think about them. Perhaps you struggle with this because you care too much what others think about you and it hurts your ego that I could actually not give a shit?

Look, son, caring what other people think about you doesn’t necessarily imply that one is craving approval. One can crave a negative reinforcement just as much as one craves positive reinforcement. When have I ever tried to claim that you are trying to get people to like you? My belief is that you subconsciously feel that it is better to feared than loved. Or, to put it another way, that you, much like Milton’s Satan, think it is better to rule in hell, than to serve in heaven. (substitute “my mind” for hell, and “society” for heaven. Oh, and before you engage in another round of semantics, by “my mind” I mean your mind, or the mind of the one who is reading this, not the mind of the one who is writing this.)
—————

This would be true if I cared what they thought or believed that their opinions could influence my authentic identity. Their opinions can only influence my false identity (the identity that we create as a mask) and then only if I actually give value to their opinions (which are also falsely formed by their own deluded and divided minds) and I don’t.

People’s opinions of me don’t influence me in any way shape or form. I am who I am by nature and if you wish to call that me then fine, but it cannot change, it is my nature. The only way your identity can be changed by other’s ideas of you is if you care what they think and if your identity is a mask. Then you can change your mask to be accepted by them or you can continue wearing that mask just to annoy them, but I am doing neither one. I do what I do because I enjoy it. I do it for the same reason children play hide and go seek. It entertains me to watch people react. I’m not doing it for you, I don’t care about you. I don’t know you. Fuck you. You, as I think of you, is an illusion. Whatever I think of you is not you, it is my idea of you and it doesn’t matter because it isn’t real, just as your idea of me is nothing more than an idea. Fuck me. Fuck you. Stop worrying what other people think about you and grow up. We’re not in grade school.


But this is where you are wrong. Peoples reactions, good and bad, can have a tremendous effect upon the unconscious. Indeed, even by consciously dismissing the opinions of others about yourself you are affecting your unconscious reactions to the stimuli which they provide. This is the feedback loop which I spoke of earlier. Your active self has expressed an action. A person responds, probably in a negative way. Your unconscious self receives pleasure from this. Your active self then rationalizes this received pleasure by claiming that you are unconcerned by their reaction by saying that “you don’t care.”

Saying “I provoke a reaction in others because I don’t care about their reaction” is nonsense.

That is your idea. You are wrong. I truly don’t care enough to be affected by your ideas.

  See, I provide a stimuli (i.e.: a claim that you will respond in a predictable matter to a provided stimuli) and you have responded in kind. Now I once again have rung the bell.

Are you drooling?

Do you have a learning disability? My authentic self is my nature, the natural mind which finds all of you hilarious and just likes fucking with you. I don’t care what you think about my identity. I don’t believe in the identity like you don’t believe in God. I grew out of that at the age of 7. Apparently you’re still a slave to that delusion.

Think whatever you wish about me. Some people will like me because they feel a connection to what they think I am and others will not feel a connection to me beccause they cannot connect to the idea of me in their heads, for whatever reasons. I don’t give a shit what you think of me either in my favor or against me. I will not be influenced by you. Your ego cannot comprehend that it is not important to me. That is your conflict with me. But, I don’t care. Believe whatever you wish.

But you obviously do. Your consciously projected identity is constructed by you in such a manner as to get certain reactions from people. Whether you believe in your conscious identity or not is immaterial. It exist as an extension of your unconscious self, which is continually being modified by the stimuli of the worlds around it. Your conscious identity is what is because it can be no other. You can no more stop being who you are consciously than I can. All your rationalizations to the contrary are bogus. You have created your identity because you like the world that that identity has created for you. Reality hasn’t changed, you haven’t changed, your consciously constructed identity hasn’t changed, whether you believe in it or not. All that has changed is your rationalizations.

Wrong sir, that is the only reason you would put on airs. I put on airs because I amuse myself by doing it. I could give a fuck about attracting your attention. If you reply then I get my amusement. If you don’t then I don’t get it here, but I will get it wherever I am. I treat life rather lightly. I don’t take you or anybody else seriously unless they are a threat to my life or the lives of others and then I will be serious with them and fuck them up, but otherwise why should I waste my life away taking human beings seriously. Human beings are talking monkeys. Do you take monkeys seriously? Why do you take human beings seriously?

But you do take monkeys seriously. Your amusement is dependent upon the reactions that you get. With out getting the reactions that you are attempting to provoke, there is no amusement. Rationalize this all you want, you are provoking the reaction because you want them to provide you with amusement. This is motivation of the clown.

Does one play basketball to inflate their ego? Some do. But many play basketball because they enjoy playing basketball. I fuck with people because I enjoy it. It’s funny. It’s like making your cat chase a laser light around the room. You don’t do that because it makes you feel smart. You do it cause it’s hilarious. You don’t feed a dog peanut butter and laugh as he tries to chew it just because it makes you feel smart, you do it because it’s funny as shit. If I’m going to be here on this earth with all of your serious illusory egos then I’m going to fuck with you and that’s just something you’re going to have to accept. I don’t take you seriously and I never will. Give me one good reason why I should. Just one.

Well, I don’t take you seriously, to be honest. But I do find it immensely amusing that you are constantly responding in ways that would seem to run counter to your perceived notions of yourself. Is this just the construct of you that I have created in my mind? Perhaps. But the point is that you keep responding. That is hilarious. You love picking on people that you feel are inferior to yourself. I enjoy deflating the ego’s of people who see themselves as superior. Whether or not they will accept the loss of air is their problem.

Ah, but this is the question, sir, if one is naturally a clown and they live life as a clown, drop their false identities and embrace their authentic nauture . . . then they are enlightened. However, if one is serious by nature and they pretend to be a clown then they are not enlightened because it is a false identity.

One man may be a clown when he becomes enlightened and another man may become the president. Who can say what will happen? You have formed an ideal of what an enlightened man or woman must act like and this is precisely my point. All ideals are bullshit. Fuck your ideals.

So you are saying that you are enlightened because you have embraced the jackass at your core? So then the bully is enlightened because he has embraced the brute at his core. The murderer is enlightened because he has embraced the killer that he truly is.

Then, perhaps I am enlightened as well, because I wholly accept the self that I am. My consciously developed self is an egoless extension of my inner desires. I certainly do very little to fit in with others, because their interest don’t concern me. I pursue my personal interest despite what other people feel about them (although, I admit, that I enjoy those interest all the more precisely because others will tell me that they find such interest uninteresting. For instance, I could just read my pretentious old books in private for my own amusement, and still receive much pleasure from it, but I enjoy the confirmation of the pretentiousness of this literature from the reaction that a public airing of it gets).

So, by your definition of enlightenment, I am enlightened, and would be less so if I were to embrace your notions thereof.

So, for what purpose are you attempting to harsh my mellow?

[ Edited: 12 January 2008 12:50 by Celsus]
 
 
Yahun
 
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Yahun
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12 January 2008 13:08
 
Celsus - 12 January 2008 05:26 PM
Yahun - 12 January 2008 03:54 AM

I’d hope you knew that, I’ve been saying that I don’t care what other people think about me for the last several days. If I actually cared what any of you think I wouldn’t make the posts that I make and would adapt to your way of thinking so that you could all congratulate me on being a puppet like yourselves. No thank you. Think whatever you wish about me, it makes no difference. Believe it or not there actually does exist people in this world who just don’t give a shit what others think about them. Perhaps you struggle with this because you care too much what others think about you and it hurts your ego that I could actually not give a shit?

Look, son, caring what other people think about you doesn’t necessarily imply that one is craving approval. One can crave a negative reinforcement just as much as one craves positive reinforcement. When have I ever tried to claim that you are trying to get people to like you? My belief is that you subconsciously feel that it is better to feared than loved. Or, to put it another way, that you, much like Milton’s Satan, think it is better to rule in hell, than to serve in heaven. (substitute “my mind” for hell, and “society” for heaven. Oh, and before you engage in another round of semantics, by “my mind” I mean your mind, or the mind of the one who is reading this, not the mind of the one who is writing this.)
—————

This would be true if I cared what they thought or believed that their opinions could influence my authentic identity. Their opinions can only influence my false identity (the identity that we create as a mask) and then only if I actually give value to their opinions (which are also falsely formed by their own deluded and divided minds) and I don’t.

People’s opinions of me don’t influence me in any way shape or form. I am who I am by nature and if you wish to call that me then fine, but it cannot change, it is my nature. The only way your identity can be changed by other’s ideas of you is if you care what they think and if your identity is a mask. Then you can change your mask to be accepted by them or you can continue wearing that mask just to annoy them, but I am doing neither one. I do what I do because I enjoy it. I do it for the same reason children play hide and go seek. It entertains me to watch people react. I’m not doing it for you, I don’t care about you. I don’t know you. Fuck you. You, as I think of you, is an illusion. Whatever I think of you is not you, it is my idea of you and it doesn’t matter because it isn’t real, just as your idea of me is nothing more than an idea. Fuck me. Fuck you. Stop worrying what other people think about you and grow up. We’re not in grade school.


But this is where you are wrong. Peoples reactions, good and bad, can have a tremendous effect upon the unconscious. Indeed, even by consciously dismissing the opinions of others about yourself you are affecting your unconscious reactions to the stimuli which they provide. This is the feedback loop which I spoke of earlier. Your active self has expressed an action. A person responds, probably in a negative way. Your unconscious self receives pleasure from this. Your active self then rationalizes this received pleasure by claiming that you are unconcerned by their reaction by saying that “you don’t care.”

Saying “I provoke a reaction in others because I don’t care about their reaction” is nonsense.

That is your idea. You are wrong. I truly don’t care enough to be affected by your ideas.

  See, I provide a stimuli (i.e.: a claim that you will respond in a predictable matter to a provided stimuli) and you have responded in kind. Now I once again have rung the bell.

Are you drooling?

Do you have a learning disability? My authentic self is my nature, the natural mind which finds all of you hilarious and just likes fucking with you. I don’t care what you think about my identity. I don’t believe in the identity like you don’t believe in God. I grew out of that at the age of 7. Apparently you’re still a slave to that delusion.

Think whatever you wish about me. Some people will like me because they feel a connection to what they think I am and others will not feel a connection to me beccause they cannot connect to the idea of me in their heads, for whatever reasons. I don’t give a shit what you think of me either in my favor or against me. I will not be influenced by you. Your ego cannot comprehend that it is not important to me. That is your conflict with me. But, I don’t care. Believe whatever you wish.

But you obviously do. Your consciously projected identity is constructed by you in such a manner as to get certain reactions from people. Whether you believe in your conscious identity or not is immaterial. It exist as an extension of your unconscious self, which is continually being modified by the stimuli of the worlds around it. Your conscious identity is what is because it can be no other. You can no more stop being who you are consciously than I can. All your rationalizations to the contrary are bogus. You have created your identity because you like the world that that identity has created for you. Reality hasn’t changed, you haven’t changed, your consciously constructed identity hasn’t changed, whether you believe in it or not. All that has changed is your rationalizations.

Wrong sir, that is the only reason you would put on airs. I put on airs because I amuse myself by doing it. I could give a fuck about attracting your attention. If you reply then I get my amusement. If you don’t then I don’t get it here, but I will get it wherever I am. I treat life rather lightly. I don’t take you or anybody else seriously unless they are a threat to my life or the lives of others and then I will be serious with them and fuck them up, but otherwise why should I waste my life away taking human beings seriously. Human beings are talking monkeys. Do you take monkeys seriously? Why do you take human beings seriously?

But you do take monkeys seriously. Your amusement is dependent upon the reactions that you get. With out getting the reactions that you are attempting to provoke, there is no amusement. Rationalize this all you want, you are provoking the reaction because you want them to provide you with amusement. This is motivation of the clown.

Does one play basketball to inflate their ego? Some do. But many play basketball because they enjoy playing basketball. I fuck with people because I enjoy it. It’s funny. It’s like making your cat chase a laser light around the room. You don’t do that because it makes you feel smart. You do it cause it’s hilarious. You don’t feed a dog peanut butter and laugh as he tries to chew it just because it makes you feel smart, you do it because it’s funny as shit. If I’m going to be here on this earth with all of your serious illusory egos then I’m going to fuck with you and that’s just something you’re going to have to accept. I don’t take you seriously and I never will. Give me one good reason why I should. Just one.

Well, I don’t take you seriously, to be honest. But I do find it immensely amusing that you are constantly responding in ways that would seem to run counter to your perceived notions of yourself. Is this just the construct of you that I have created in my mind? Perhaps. But the point is that you keep responding. That is hilarious. You love picking on people that you feel are inferior to yourself. I enjoy deflating the ego’s of people who see themselves as superior. Whether or not they will accept the loss of air is their problem.

Ah, but this is the question, sir, if one is naturally a clown and they live life as a clown, drop their false identities and embrace their authentic nauture . . . then they are enlightened. However, if one is serious by nature and they pretend to be a clown then they are not enlightened because it is a false identity.

One man may be a clown when he becomes enlightened and another man may become the president. Who can say what will happen? You have formed an ideal of what an enlightened man or woman must act like and this is precisely my point. All ideals are bullshit. Fuck your ideals.

So you are saying that you are enlightened because you have embraced the jackass at your core? So then the bully is enlightened because he has embraced the brute at his core. The murderer is enlightened because he has embraced the killer that he truly is.

Then, perhaps I am enlightened as well, because I wholly accept the self that I am. My consciously developed self is an egoless extension of my inner desires. I certainly do very little to fit in with others, because their interest don’t concern me. I pursue my personal interest despite what other people feel about them (although, I admit, that I enjoy those interest all the more precisely because others will tell me that they find such interest uninteresting. For instance, I could just read my pretentious old books in private for my own amusement, and still receive much pleasure from it, but I enjoy the confirmation of the pretentiousness of this literature from the reaction that a public airing of it gets).

So, by your definition of enlightenment, I am enlightened, and would be less so if I were to embrace your notions thereof.

So, for what purpose are you attempting to harsh my mellow?

hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

I love pseudo-psychologists. This response was adorable.
Tell me, Freud, why am I using an alias?

 
Celsus
 
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Celsus
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12 January 2008 13:23
 
Yahun - 12 January 2008 06:08 PM

Tell me, Freud, why am I using an alias?

I don’t know. Why am I using an alias?

And Freud was a moron. wink

 
 
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