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Hitler’s Theology

 
Terrorfrog
 
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Terrorfrog
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02 May 2016 14:01
 

However the Argument Hitler was Christian still, while not really true, is still kinda valid.
Since Hitler usually stands for the persecution of and murder of Jewish people.

Ofc its much more complex, since the whole movement was in place and fully armed long before he had anything to say about it.
and those people where motivated by many things, christian religion is decently one big part of it too. but sure not the only thing.
but Christianity was also often used as an excuse. It is simply little bit hard to justify to hate a group of people because they have more wealth.

but you cant really separate, economic and political reasons from Christianity back then. many issues and problems where tied together.
alone the doctrine that no christian is allowed to run banking business was a root cause for economic problems and which where alter one of the causes of the antisemitic movement

so therefore the argument is still valid, the movement was defently deeply christian. its hard to say if it was driven by religion or just fueled by it.
but one thing is clear

the pope, the vatican, everyone where very very silent about all of it, even they had an gigantic big influence in germany, asutria and italy back then.
history would be very different, if the pope had forbidden the persecution of the jewish people

[ Edited: 02 May 2016 14:03 by Terrorfrog]
 
June
 
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June
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03 May 2016 15:00
 

I think the argument is still valid too Terrorfrog, a little murky however,  as to what Christianity meant at that time.  Hitler and his chief propagandist Goebbels embraced some form of Christianity, most likely a form of Protestantism, while belonging to the Catholic Church.  Goebbels certainly credited God when assassination attempts were made on Hitler, and he escaped without injury.  This only strengthened his zeal to pursue after the Jews, and further his resolve to control the mood of the German people in support of the war efforts.  He viewed Christ as the incarnation of love, a Creator and not a destroyer.  Michael, a Novel.

From Wagener’s memoirs,  Hitler had made reference to Christ among his inner circle in his ideas of “real” socialism resonating around the words of Jesus.  He spoke about the sense of community, to love one another,  public need before private greed, preaching his own gospel.
Hitler insisted Christianity was at the center of Nazi social thought, and inspirational for German socialism. 
Walter Buch, head of the Nazi party believed in the words that Christ preached struggle.  It was the Protestant youths,  not the Catholics that were more prone towards Nazism.  Hitler thought the Protestants were easier to lead in that he believed them to be more obedient to authority than the Catholics.
Paganism was another principle current of religious thought within Nazism coupled with Positive Christianity, suggesting Nazism was predicated on a Christian understanding of Germany’s ills and their cure.  The Jew was thought to be an enemy of Christianity,  Germany and the Aryan.

[ Edited: 03 May 2016 15:15 by June]
 
 
Terrorfrog
 
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Terrorfrog
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03 May 2016 19:45
 

Uhh oohh Danger Zone,

Using references to the church, sadly, doesn’t mean much back in that time.

You have to understand that the churches, primarily the catholic, influence in daily life was omnipresent.
Even those people who are not religiose in any sense used references and phrases.
After all most of the education where still pretty much under influence if not control of the church.

There´s also the other Point where you simply had to use those Phrases just because it was expected by the people.
And the third Factor ofc is that many in his inner circle where indeed more or less religious. How much is hard to say.
After all there was always the need to pretend, just very similar to todays US Politicians and specially the President.


That Hitler preferred protestants is another thing, however it didnt made much difference in regards to the Holocaust. Both Churches where pretty good Helpers in that regard. After all 95% of all Germans where either Catholic or Protestant with a much deeper binding to their church then it is today.

Now about Goebbles, well he was Atheist, beside the Fact he attended to catholic schools, basically every higher school was catholic anyway, and even was in the Student unity “Unitas” whcih is deeply catholic.
However after the first Worldwar he started to doubt his belifes and started to study Dostojewski and came later to the Atheism.

So , as much as i want to, neither Goebbles or Hitler where really Christian in their believes.
As an interresting Footnote is, that Atheist where forbidden to join the SS.


To understand that better. Everone referes and ties the Holocaust exclusivly to Hitler.
Well thats pretty much off. He used that movement, he supported it, even expanded it yes.
But it started long bevore he was even known in the NSDAP.

And this is here the big mistake. The Protestant Church (re) startet the antisemtism already at around 1900
and the NSDAP was already a very right wing, very religios and very extreme, very hating and dangerous party with their own military arm before Hitler even joined them.

So even neither Hitler or Goebbles could really be pronounced as Christian Beliefers it doesnt really matter because the Movement itself was christian. The Reference is just not really correct, but ofc it works well. After all you cant start a debate about Hitlers Role in the Holocaust as an counter argument about Atheism.

PS: The Problem is, even if you could determine the Christian (cat. and protestant) Churches as the real source of the Holocaust you wont get far with that.
There is, even by law in Germany and Austria, an created Fact that only the Nazi Movement and Hitler are responsible.
Hell if you try to argue there too much that it was indeed primarily a Christian thing you could endup in Jail as a Holocaust denier.

A real neutral Viewpoint and recapture was denied by many factors.
I wonder how much influence by the Christian Churches where needed to leave em outta this mess so elegantly.

[ Edited: 03 May 2016 19:54 by Terrorfrog]
 
likota
 
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likota
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05 May 2016 01:11
 
Terrorfrog - 02 May 2016 02:01 PM

However the Argument Hitler was Christian still, while not really true, is still kinda valid.
Since Hitler usually stands for the persecution of and murder of Jewish people…

It is valid. Maybe, one can start futile discussion what is a christian is what is not. I assume that’s the one that accepts Christ’s teachings. Islam also goes that route in following what is a true moslem. However, that is so convoluted that we have to accept Hitler’s christian base model. And why not: each Hitler’s soldier had a belt buckle with swastika and “Got Mit Uns” on it.

Many battles were initiated by the faith of a leader and his belief that some god will be on his side. Having in mind that in the Old Testamant there are about 2.3 million dead by orders of God or by an indirect result of his ‘teachings,’ I can’t see where a christian may be confused about Hitler and Nazism.

Furthermore, as a new Nazi ‘religion’ (Nationalsocialism) spread throught Germany and even the world, why not for a while imagine Hitler as a prophet of a new religion? It was a new–religious fervor among the millions who followed Hitler’s every word, while their own morals and beliefs changed and were embeded by Hitler’s ideas.

This my look as shallow thinking, but it is valid in its basics and examples through history.

 
Terrorfrog
 
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Terrorfrog
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05 May 2016 05:21
 

Well its a common misconception that everything was orchestarted by nazi leadership into details but thats only half the truth.

The most things around the Nazi ideology where already there, they just built the ideology around what people already wanted and just went a few steps more into extremism. But many ideas wherent really created by the Nazis. Again the NSDAP went from 5% to over 30% within 6 Months only by using Religion as a political rocketmotor.

So isignias like “Gott mit uns” (god is with us) where also no invention, it was a needed tribute to an already religious nation but also very religious structures.
The christian church was already deeply integrated into schools and military. So that wasnt really nazi intention to become a religion, by far not.

The Main doctrin of the nazis was that germans with clean heritage are the “arier” as a supiror masterrace. Well not even that was a real new concept, much of it was already propagated by the church. It was just a little mixup with old Germanic ideas and phrases.

However, one thing you cant really say, that hitler wanted to be a god, neither was the nazi a religion. That would be impossible to pull of back in the time, not needed.
specially hitler always adjusted his ideology to his followers.

it was like, ok doesnt matter, whatever works is fine for me, als long they go to war they can have whatever they want.
only when it comes to the political and military power structure there was a clear single person leadership, with no second and no alternative.
But this was relatively fragile because his hole powerbase was very deeply based on the christian church.
That why he invented the hitlers youth. to better indoctrinate kids and make em more dependent on the nazi ideology then on religious one.

here it didnt really matter if catcholic or protestant. it wasnt like irland, both religions worked and still do work pretty good along each other.

and yes the christians like to forget things, in case of hitler there are 2 major factors.
#1 the winners wanted to declare the nazi as the one and only evil for all that, simply because they knew if they declare germans itself as the evil they never gonna get rid of the problem. they needed a way to punish for the warcrimes but also gave that country an exit out of that mess after 2 worldwars.
#2 the germans also dont wanted deeper questioning. nazis as the only source of evil was a very nice way to deal with their own guilt
#3 nobody wanted to excuse even slightly the nazis to prevent any followup.

and dont forget, even within the allied the christian church in all its forms was still superstrong, even much more then today. you simply couldnt even partly blame the church.

as a result, there is now a law in place that prohibits you to use any of the nazi slogans or handsigns,  possesion of and kind of nazi material, like banner, flags and meddals.
and say anything positive or less negative about the nazis. that is till today.

there a lot of right right right wing politicans who where in front of a court for simply sayings like “the nazis had a good employment policy”.

you could argue that it goes against free speech, but then again, the nazis where declared as the one and only source and reason for the whole WW2 and the holocaust.
therefore it is accepted as a measure to prevent any reincarnation of that ideology. - ironically the communist ideology which did cost even more lifes back then is not banned.

and here is what i cannot graps. if i really follow that argumentation it would be just logical to ban religions, specially islam.
after all they share many of the most problematic and dangerous concepts and doctrin almost to the letter. one of the reasons why hitler was really a big fan of the islam itself.

again to him it didnt matter what religion you had, as it could be easy used for his personal goals.
even the “arier” principal wasnt really something personal, it was a way to unite the nation, give em a reason and a clear black and white good and evil.
he himself wouldnt even close to the definition of an “arier”, another very ironic part.

 

 
Terrorfrog
 
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Terrorfrog
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05 May 2016 05:26
 

one mroe thing, in my view the nazi not only took existing popular ideas and made them their own to get hold of an ongoing movement.

the real dangerous part was they did it very methodically and invented a very organized and strict police state.
if you want they took whatever was already there and brought it up to the next few levels.

it is really hard to determine where religious intent and beliefs ended and where nazi ideology begins, they both were fused together pretty good.
but the mechanical and methodical part was purely by that nazi machine. it is like an superextreme Christianity on steroids.

but one thing for shure, the role of Christianity as a basic foundation for all that insanity was absolutely underplayed later and had sadly no consequences.

[ Edited: 05 May 2016 05:29 by Terrorfrog]
 
unsmoked
 
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05 May 2016 10:59
 
Terrorfrog - 05 May 2016 05:26 AM

but one thing for shure, the role of Christianity as a basic foundation for all that insanity was absolutely underplayed later and had sadly no consequences.

Like the widespread anti-semitism prevalent in the U.S. at that time.  Henry Ford Sr. was sending Hitler a $50,000 birthday present every year.  He was publishing anti-semitic tracts for distribution to all his workers.  After the king of the British Empire abdicated, he and his American wife went to Berlin to hobnob with the Nazis.

 
 
Terrorfrog
 
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Terrorfrog
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05 May 2016 13:20
 

Yea true, its disgusting how twisted History is gonna be potrayed.
Specially today, where todays moral standards are used to view those Events and reasons for the War with Germany where twisted from the perspective after the War.

but matter of fact soldiers didnt fight the big genozidal Evil, they where fighting the Krauts. Only after the War, or short bevore it was discovered what the Germans really did in total.
But the Antisemitsm was well known and socially absolutly acceptable, long bevore the Nazis even emerged.

But i wouldnt judge the Americans to bad for that. After all they still had an Apartheid, no elections for Women and where very close to an christian god state.
no accident that the dollarnotes still show “in god we trust”.

So there wasnt only germany as the big evil, there wasnt even anyone really good anywhere in the world.
Still Europe and America still do a lot of evil things specially to weaker countrys today, but it did change and improve on a large scale and we are on a good way.

However if we dont really learn from our History we will repeat it. And sign stand alarmingly on repetition in one form or another

And i really do believe that most of it hangs on the not really objectifly review on the holocaust.
Otherwise we would have taken meassures against any religious influence on that level. Well we got lucky that the christian influence is reduced today, much more then ever but we still have the islam as a Damocles sword hanging around over mankind head.

 
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