the void

Total Posts:  1
Joined  18-12-2005
18 December 2005 13:47

while i am aware of the reasons for the focus on christianity and islam in matters of secular criticism, i am astonished to find so little material available in terms of judaism.  we have heard elsewhere on this forum that judaism is more intellectually rigorous and does not proselytize.  ok, that's all well and good—but there is another (very important) argument that deals with the miserable and violent effects attributed to religion.  we hear constant anecdotes about witch trials, the inquisition and the current issue of terrorism and islamofascism.  but why is judaism left out? 

sam's book is one of the first i have found which incorporates criticisms of judaism to any noticable degree.  this is difficult, because many muslims who may be even slightly open to criticism, find an apparent lack of quips and disparagements made about judaism.  where are they?  can anybody recommend books, websites, authors, etc.?  the crimes of the jews and the argument against the malignancy in the core of judaism needs to come more front and center—even if they do not surface as easily as a recitation of surah 9 from the koran.  sam touches on this when he attacks the sectarianism of judaism, but we need more of the historical examples (alluded to at times by noam chomsky when he refers to the bible as 'the most genocidal book in the canon'). 

as long as judaism came first, we should look at the phenomenon of monotheism as an evolving singular phenomenon.  the 'violent core' of islam must be traceable to judaism, no?  why is this point never made?  of, at least, why is it not made more often?  i'm sure it is not a result of some feared retaliation from the "jewish cabals" so many assert exist in the media and government.  however, without these issues being brought front and center, the community of secular critics must understand that a large, important contingent of their potential audience is writing them off, if for no other reason than because it looks disingenuous.  i'm not jewish, christian or muslim and it looks out of balance to me.  the history of secularism in the modern west shows that a significant portion of it's progenitors were formerly jewish or of jewish descent.  my only point is that these issues should be addressed.  critics of religion should be as willing to endure empty accusations of anti-semitism from jewish groups as they are to endure being called infidels by muslim groups and immoral by the christian right.  currently they are not.

i consider myself to be fairly aware of the available major works of religious criticism that have circulated in the past 200 years (though i am aware that i ahve missed many).  why, then, am i so much more equipped as a result of my readings, to offer anecdotes and statistics, scriptural references from christianity and islam than i am from judaism?  where are the big, popular anti-judaism books so i can quote in conversation the atrocities of the jewish religion the way i can christianity and islam?  maybe i have missed something.  if so, i hope somebody on this forum can direct me to the right place.

Total Posts:  1284
Joined  21-12-2004
18 December 2005 14:49

Speaking only for myself, of course, it’s difficult to become worked up about Jewish history the way one can about the other two “Abrahamic” religions.  The bloody histories of both Christianity and Islam are well known – and well documented.  Jewish history, on the other hand, the old testament anyhow, is mainly myth created to impress the Babylonians, and give some sort of an identity to a people who were conquered by every other nation in the region.

Until recent times the Jewish people just kind of drifted through history, for the most part very inoffensively.  It wasn’t until the establishment of the Jewish state that they began to have a history as a nation.  So far, they have established themselves as fitting members of the Abrahamic fraternity.  Their treatment of the Palestinians ranks right up there with the Christian’s treatment of heretics, and the historic Islamic treatment of infidels. 

The Jews are the predecessors of Christians and Islamics only accidentally.  The early literal Christians needed some scriptural foundation for their fictitious god-man and adapted the Jewish old testament, claiming roots therein.  Same thing for the Moslems, so why blame the Jews?  The old testament was created out of whole cloth, and so were the other religions.

Total Posts:  1182
Joined  22-12-2004
18 December 2005 20:36

I would think one main reason is that Jews don’t seek converts, so they dont advertise or preach or try to enforce their religion on anyone except in Isreal, which is a theocracy.

I have had my share of getting callled anti-semite for trying to discuss the problems I see with the state of Isreal, and with the Jewish religion, particulary with the more fundamentalist Jewish groups.

In fact I think it is one reason GVI left this forum = (

Total Posts:  1149
Joined  14-11-2005
19 December 2005 03:13

A few quotes I have picked up along the way.  I really don’t have a “thing” against Jews only that they are not immune from the ills of hatred and small mindedness.  These quotes demonstrate this:

“There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies, not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy.”
- Israeli president Moshe Katsav, The Jerusalem Post, May 10th 2001

“The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more”....
- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28th 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post, August 30th 2000

“[The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs.”
- Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, ‘Begin and the Beasts’ New Statesman, 25th June 1982

‘The Palestinians ” ...would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.” ‘
- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers, New York Times April 1st 1988

“When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.”
- Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14th April 1983

“How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.”
- Golda Meir, Israeli Prime Minister, March 8th 1969

“There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed.”
- Golda Maier, June 15th 1969

“The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war.”
- Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha’aretz, 19th March 1972

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
- David Ben Gurion, first Israeli Prime Minister, quoted by Nahum Goldmann in ‘Le Paraddoxe Juif’ (‘The Jewish Paradox’), pp12

“We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return.” Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. “The old will die and the young will forget.”
- David Ben Gurion, 1948

“We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.”
- Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

“Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”
- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3rd 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

“We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel… Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.”
- Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13th April 1983, New York Times 14th April 1983

“We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return”
- David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar’s Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157

“We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai.”
- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From ‘Ben-Gurion, A Biography’, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
- Israel Koenig, ‘The Koenig Memorandum’

“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”
- Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4th 1969

“In strategic terms, the settlements (in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza) are of no importance.”
- Binyamin Begin, son of the late Menahem Begin and a prominent voice in the Likud party, writing in 1991, quoted in Findley, ‘Deliberate Deceptions’p 159

“We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, ‘What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!’”
- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23rd October 1979

“We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters”
- Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion’s special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960, from “The Arabs in Israel” by Sabri Jiryas

“There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a tenant. tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:...the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish…with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary.”
- Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency’s Colonization Department. From ‘Israel: an Apartheid State’ by Uri Davis, p.5.

“Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours. [....] Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”
- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15th 1998

“The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It’s that simple.”
-Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 21st February 1997

“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”
- Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, 14th July 1972

“Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment. [....] Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”
- Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, Complete Diaries, June 12th 1895 entry

“The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It’s that simple.”
-Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 21st February 1997

“Any political empowerment of Palestinians must be limited and monitored by Israel, [because] Palestinian history and destiny are secondary to Jewish history and destiny.”
- Marc Ellis, Jewish-American political scholar and professor at Baylor University, as quoted in ‘Before There Was Terrorism’ by Kathleen Christison, Counterpunch, May 2nd 2002

“We are stronger than you. You are weak. You are all alone. No one will come and help you.”
- Unidentified Israeli Defence Force patrol, driving down the streets of Nablus with loudspeakers, as reported by International Solidarity Movement member Beth Daoud to Nancy Stohlman in East Jerusalem, April 9th 2002


Total Posts:  40
Joined  02-12-2005
06 January 2006 19:06

There is a serious problem in Israel, the treatment of Palestinians has never been fair and human rights violations abound. Israel however is no theocracy. It is one of the few countries in the world where both women and men are paid the same salaries and women can rise to the heights of power all the way to Prime Minister. The Knesset, Israeli parliament has Arab members. Contrast this with its Arab neighbours and you will see that the only thing they have in common is the human rights abuses. Remember that it wasn’t long ago that Jordan expelled the PLO along thousands of Palestinians to camps in Lebanon because of the security risk they posed to their soveirgnty.
Sam mentioned once that he thought it was obnoxious that a nation should be founded on the basis of religious mythology, but he also mentioned that on account of the world’s violent anti-semitism they needed a nation for their own safety, he’s right on both accounts. Jews where targeted for elimination in every single country in Europe, except for Georgia. That is the only historical factor all European nations have in common. Even in Canada for many years Jews were not allowed to own property. In Turkey this was true up to only a few years ago.
For most of WWII the Palestinians succesfully barred Jewish migration to Palestine by pleading with the British colonials to keep them out. Although some made through the blockade in secrecy, most Jews were re-routed by boatloads to Eastern Europe to be killed in the Holocaust. There is not one Israeli who will ever forget that.
The nationalistic and chauvinistic quotes you have posted here may all be real, but what do Israel’s neighbours say about Jews? Recently the Iranian president said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map and that the Holocaust never happened.
Jews have always been a literate and educated people usually surrounded by ignorant, jealous and violent Christian neighbours who went out of their way to kill them.
When the Portuguese (my people!) finally ousted the Dutch from the coast of northeastern Brazil, before taking any other administrative decision or attempting any sort of post-war re-building they immediately started executing the local Jewish population. To them it was a much bigger priority to do the ‘Lord’s work’ than to attend to anything else.
Unfortunately I’m afraid you will find that most critique of Jews to be nothing more than well-worded thinly disguised bigotry.
The US and UK media is run overwhelmingly by Christians, most of them with ties to Protestant/Anglican churches. The same go for banks. This myth of media and banks being run by Jews together with this ‘they killed Christ’ myth have been at the centre of the genocidal behaviour Christians have engaged in towards Jews.

Total Posts:  40
Joined  02-12-2005
06 January 2006 19:22

Check out Munich, it has a harsh critique of Israeli policy and it was directed by a very famous Jew, also check out Pearls: